What is the "good news"?

[Servant19]

Well there I am limited, sorry. Nevertheless, Baha’u’llah can’t contradict ANY
previous prophet, such as Moses. Remember the Isaac vs Ishmael issue(?):

My friend, this is not a religious matter, this is a historical matter. History from the time of Abraham “can lose its authenticity”…if you wish I can bring up scholarly papers from the local university history dept relating to loss of authenticity over time…

If you wish to get into this we can easily talk about how Jesus contradicted the Law of Moses for the stoning of adulterers in John 8:1-11
(why don’t Catholics stone adulterers today?)

We can also hold Baha’i doctrine in contradiction to the words of Jesus:"Was Christ within god, or God within Christ (John 14:10-11)? No in the name of God. "

– (Abdul Baha Questions, pg. 97)

Where does Christ say that God is contained within Him?

Paul wrote that all Scripture (Old Testament + writings of the Apostles) are
“God-Breathed” (inspired of God), and the Gospels we have are the earliest
of all gospels, thus are ruled as most trustworthy, more so than the Qur’an,
contrary to Baha’u’llah’s opinion.

“inspired by God” can have many meanings. Ontologically, we do not know what it means. The authentic WORD OF GOD is another story altogether.

---- I can give a speech today and you can write it down word for word, show it to me at the end and I say, “YES” …thats authentic…
---- You could memorize the speech word for word and then write it down later…thats less authentic but still pretty reliable.
---- You could listen to it, get the gist of it, and then drawing upon the purity of your heart and the purity of your motive write down what you feel is the truth and message behind my speech…thats “inspired by God”. This is valid but not authentic, like option 1 above…

Perhaps that was a bit harsh (even inaccurate). “WHAT the Holy Spirit is” is God.
“WHO the Holy Spirit is” is a person (having own mind, emotion, intellect, will, etc),

Can you show me a Bible reference for these two things please?

1. Holy Spirit IS God, and
2. Holy Spirit has its own mind, emotion and intellect, like a person.

so we can’t have the same Holy Spirit but different beliefs,

Can you tell me why there are over 3000 denominations of Christianity therefore please?

Jesus says:But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in
my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of every-
thing I have said to you.
– (John 14:26)

Who is the Advocate?
Is He the same as the Spirit of Truth?

The Trinity is not a superstition. Do you suggest that God is something we can put un-
der a microscope and know everything about?

No I don’t think God can be put under a microscope, but the whole concept of “incarnation” says that He can… as does the concept of the Eucharist…

There is the Mystery of God, we can on-
ly go with what the text says

Agreed, but why limit yourself to a 2000 year old document of restricted authenticity?

If the Bible says that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, are distinct
persons clearly, yet there is only One God, we have no other conclusion to go to than
a tri-personal God. We can’t fully understand that, but was it not you who described
the human mind as punny, limited, and so forth?

Yes, the human minds of me, you and the Apostles are NOTHING compared to God Himself.

Let God explain what the meanings are, not the Apostles. As the Prophet Daniel said Himself, the meanings of the Books is sealed until the time of the end. So why would the Apostles assume that they are privy to the meanings suddenly?

No, we understand what the text says, we can’t fully fathom it otherwise either God
isn’t so infinite or we are the ones who are as infinite as God. That doesn’t work for
me, sorry. I don’t worship a God that I can fully comprehend.
When people early on questioned the Deity of Jesus, did the Holy Spirit take a nap?
Nope, he got right to work and made sure that the Church was on the right course.
When people questioned then the humanity of Jesus, did the Holy Spirit get lazy?
No, he made sure he inspired bishops to argue against such heresy. How about
that time when one man named Arius preached around that “Once the Son of
God was not”? that Jesus was a created god? How did the Holy Spirit react?
Again, he guided the Church to fight against that false doctrine.

My friend, when you say that “God was contained within the 4 walls of the Temple” it is not a sign that “God is not so infinite” it is a sign that "you didn’t get the point"

If God can be LITERALLY contained then He immediately is no God anymore, so maybe, just maybe it didn’t literally happen, but rather, as scholars are increasingly pointing out these days, the way things were communicated in those times was a lot more allegorical and metaphorical, rather than literal…

…THAT appeals to the human intellect and resonates with our God-given capacities and faculties in their mature state

You don’t need to worship a God that you don’t comprehend. This is the EXACT reason why God sends to you and I an “epistemological God” called Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

THE HOLY SPIRIT NEVER STOPS WORKING DEAR FRIEND

…but at some point people think they are recipients of the Holy Spirit when in reality it is only our vain imaginings…

(if you want youtube videos of this very fact in action, then I am happy to post)

God bless you brother

.

 

[Servant19]

“Greater” how? You can’t just come up with quick conclusions like that.

Dear friend, I am not making the conclusions. I’m not the one coming up with offices, persons and substances… I take it on face value and hope that God will reveal His nature a little bit more, authoritatively…which He has…

The
Word is God, the Bible says. Thomas calls Jesus God, so does Paul, Peter,
James, John, Jude, oy vey do you want to see them singing it while jumping
rope or something? So if the Father is “greater” than Jesus, but both are in-
fact the same God, then it must be greater in roles played in the salvation of
mankind.

Again, if The Father is greater in ANY capacity than the Son, then the Son cannot be God, for there cannot be anything greater than the one God…

Okay, you accept John1:1a, John1:1b, but refuse to acknowledge John1:1c. When
confronted by it even, you have to come up with such depressing answers, depres-
sing because the Bible defined John1:1 before you did.

Why is the accurate reading of Scripture with precision and clarity depressing for you? I find it exhilaratingly liberating

Don’t get the elitist part, but it’s simply. I and other Christians don’t take one verse
and isolated it from the entirety of the Bible. I let the Bible define what that means.

Okay, please show me other verses which can offer a more wholistic and total understanding that Jesus is God…

I am a single human Being, and I am a single Person named here Judas.

Do you even know how confusing this sentence is Judas? Isn’t God simple in Christian theology?

God is a single Divine Being, but God is also THREE Persons that share in the One Being that is God.
Can we fully comprehend what that means? No, but it’s
an easy enough to grasp concept for us to believe in.

After all the evidence provided to the contrary, you resort back to what is unscriptural…

Have I been doing it that much?

LOL…Yes!! I actually find it quite quirky and fun!!

Is there anything greater than God? No, but Jesus is God also. The Father and the
Son are in the same Being of God,

This contradicts the reality that Jesus, as a supposed incarnated entity, was His own independent Being…

but that does not mean one takes a greater or
lesser role in the salvation of Man.
You’re problem is that you are reading into the
word “greater” and are thus swearing that it can’t possibly mean anything other
than “Greater in Might, Power, Majesty, Glory, Divinity, and the like.”
False Equivocation is what you’re giving me here.

No there’s nothing false in it at all. Even “greater in the office of salvation” (whatever that means) implies that there is something greater than God…

 

[meltzerboy]

Try this link:
accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html
351 Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

Thank you, Judas Thaddeus. Of course, Jewish and Hebrew scholars believe that most of these prophecies involve either translation errors, intentional or unintentional, or lifting verses from their narrative and historical context, and have extensively written about this. The prophecies of Isaiah, in particular, have been fertile ground for much discussion and debate.

 

[Kliska]

Hi Kliska.

I must say I laughed out loud when you wrote “spit in His face”! There’s no need for me to go there, its not a war here. Theres no need to lose our souls for the sake of winning an argument

We lose our souls by dying without a covering sacrifice for sin. Jesus is that covering sacrifice, by denying this, it is indeed spitting in His face, and treading His sacrifice underfoot, denying the Master that bought you. That is why those of us Christians here, even from different churches, are intent on teaching the Truth of Jesus.

For me this is not an argument, it is a dialogue and exploration

In the formal logical sense, this is all an argument. An argument is a matter of form; conclusions being backed up by premises.

Now, can you please tell me why I need to “confess and testify that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? Do you testify that He is Divine, being truly God as well as truly man? Do you testify that He came in a bodily incarnation, lived a perfect life, was crucified and physically rose 3 days later?”?

Because God Himself gave us these standards to see who is who and what is what. If you can’t answer those correctly, we aren’t dealing with someone who is representing the correct spirit.

When God is Represented on earth by another true Prophet, why would He need to confess and testify to things that Jesus never said? To appease your quest for exclusivity?

It is God the Father Who is exclusive because He doesn’t like people disrespecting His Son because of what He did for us. A true prophet would be answering those questions much differently than Bab ever did, or you. Of course that is what we believe; we are Christian, you are Bahai.

Well, I will tell you now, good is all inclusive, not exclusive. Those that follow man-made falsities to exclude themselves as the “elite” of the world are those that are “not” of God…

Not so. Evil exists, Satan exists, an imperfect world exists, sin exists, eternity exists. We have to be very careful what we believe. Not every prophet is from God, and He gets to set and decide what test is proper for anyone claiming to come from Him. He’s set the test, and Mohammed nor Bab passes it.

 

[Servant19]

Thank you, Judas Thaddeus. Of course, Jewish and Hebrew scholars believe that most of these prophecies involve either translation errors, intentional or unintentional, or lifting verses from their narrative and historical context, and have extensively written about this. The prophecies of Isaiah, in particular, have been fertile ground for much discussion and debate.

Hey meltzerboy,

May I ask, have you ever considered looking at Jesus as a Prophet as and of Himself, on His own merits rather than through the lens of the Old Testament?

If so, why would you reject Him as opposed to Moses?

 

[Servant19]

Here’s a good one too to follow along with your inquiries. If Jesus died once and for all for us then why are we still here? Why didn’t this reality stop when Jesus died on the cross? What is we are supposed to be doing? Why didn’t He take us with Him?

It doesn’t seem to make sense at first blush to say “Jesus died for our sins and saved us from death” then why do we die?

It does seem confusing but I do believe there is a good reason why it happened the way it did and it doesn’t have to make sense to us all.

Hi kingston

I’m not really sure I understand your post…could you please kindly re-iterate what you are trying to put forward?

.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hey meltzerboy,

May I ask, have you ever considered looking at Jesus as a Prophet as and of Himself, on His own merits rather than through the lens of the Old Testament?

If so, why would you reject Him as opposed to Moses?

When I was a child, one of my teachers was a rabbinical student, and he said that Jesus was possibly a prophet. Later I discovered this was a heretical statement. In Orthodox Judaism (meaning virtually all of Judaism, not limited to Torah Judaism), Jesus is regarded as neither a prophet nor the Messiah, let alone G-d Himself in human form. There are, however, Nazarene Jews who survive to this day and who believe Jesus to be not only a prophet but also the Messiah albeit not divine. My own view is that Jesus may very well have been a true (not false) prophet although probably not the Messiah based on the Written Law and codified Oral Law, and, as a dogmatic matter of Jewish faith in who the Messiah is supposed to be as separate from G-d, not divine.

 

[Servant19]

We lose our souls by dying without a covering sacrifice for sin. Jesus is that covering sacrifice, by denying this, it is indeed spitting in His face, and treading His sacrifice underfoot, denying the Master that bought you. That is why those of us Christians here, even from different churches, are intent on teaching the Truth of Jesus.

This is fine. I’m certainly not denying Jesus, nor am I denying His sacrifice to enable us to overcome sin. I just believe that when the “I am” manifests itself, we all fall into sin again, and another sacrifice needs to be made.

Sin is relative, not absolute…
The Will of God is relative from age to age, and “Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother”…those that fall outside of that Will are into sin.

The Will of God during Moses time was similarly the sword that separated those that were sinners and those that were not. Those that obeyed the Commandments to the best of their capacity, and were animated by the Holy Spirit and the grace it infused within them were those that were saved, and the opposite to this were sinners…

In the formal logical sense, this is all an argument. An argument is a matter of form; conclusions being backed up by premises.

Fair enough, but I feel it is being done respectfully. Please understand that it is not my intention to spit in anyones face, especially the Lord’s!!

Because God Himself gave us these standards to see who is who and what is what. If you can’t answer those correctly, we aren’t dealing with someone who is representing the correct spirit.

Can you please show me where?

It is God the Father Who is exclusive because He doesn’t like people disrespecting His Son because of what He did for us. A true prophet would be answering those questions much differently than Bab ever did, or you. Of course that is what we believe; we are Christian, you are Bahai.

Can you show me where any of the Baha’i Writings disrespects anything Jesus claimed for Himself please?

Not so. Evil exists, Satan exists, an imperfect world exists, sin exists, eternity exists. We have to be very careful what we believe. Not every prophet is from God, and He gets to set and decide what test is proper for anyone claiming to come from Him. He’s set the test, and Mohammed nor Bab passes it.

Again, please provide your references …

.

 

[kingston1]

Hi kingston

I’m not really sure I understand your post…could you please kindly re-iterate what you are trying to put forward?

.

Soory (I post in Canadian). Nothing much other than I am following on or adding to your questions by saying if Jesus died for us so that we may have life, why did we remain in a place where we die? Why not just go to the place where we live eternally once and for all immediately after Jesus’ resurrection? Is it because there is more to do here? Is it because Christianity is false or we understand under false premises? Or what?

I’m asking a question I believe I have the answer to but wanted to see what your thoughts were or others?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

(Your quotes shortened for space)

…If you wish to get into this we can easily talk about how Jesus contradicted the Law of Moses for the stoning of adulterers in John 8:1-11

Alright, so Baha’u’llah good, Bible not good, not God-Breathed. That’s very Mormon of
you, you know. Now did Jesus break the Law of Moses? I have an easy to follow link,
ask that you continue looking for Apologetics on this matter, but according to the link
Jesus did not break the Law but would have if the woman was stoned:
http://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2011/12/03/did-jesus-contradict-the-bible-by-not-stoning-the-woman-caught-in-adultery/
Now why don’t we stone adulteresses today? Because Jesus fulfilled the Law for us,
was made sin for us though he was sinless, and has made the perfect atonement to
satisfy God’s displeasure towards us.

Where does Christ say that God is contained within Him?

Well I would cite John 14:10-11 and Colossians 2:9. Also, I know you discount the Christian interpretation of
John 1, but the Word was (eternally) God, was made flesh, pitched his tent among us, can be described as a
walking tabernacle so to speak.

“inspired by God” can have many meanings. Ontologically, we do not know what it means. The authentic WORD OF GOD is another story altogether.
---- I can give a speech today and you can write it down word for word, show it to me at the end and I say, “YES” …thats authentic…
---- You could memorize the speech word for word and then write it down later…thats less authentic but still pretty reliable.
---- You could listen to it, get the gist of it, and then drawing upon the purity of your heart and the purity of your motive write down what you feel is the truth and message behind my speech…thats “inspired by God”. This is valid but not authentic, like option 1 above…

“God-Breathed”, “Inspired by God”, and so forth in the context of Scripture means that the Holy Book says what it says because God willed it.
Such is the work of the Holy Spirit, to inspire the Prophets and the Apostles and those who knew them to write everything down that God wants
do be written down. To question the Scriptures is to deny the sovereignty of the Spirit, which sounds like what you are doing, as though you are
suggesting that God was never ever behind the Bible. Either God was or God was not, simple as that, because you can’t say that the Scriptures
were inspired by God at one point, only then say that God liked it for time, thought it was all fun, but later just left it to rot.

Can you show me a Bible reference for these two things please?

1. Holy Spirit IS God, and
2. Holy Spirit has its own mind, emotion and intellect, like a person.

Well for # 1:But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart,
that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep
part of the price of the land? Whilst it remained, did it not re-
main to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power?
Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast
not lied to men, but to God.

• (Acts 5:3–4)

Now the Lord is a Spirit. And where the
Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

• (2 Corinthians 3:17)
  For # 2:SPEAKS
  And the Spirit **said **to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
• (Acts 8:29)

FEELS
I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the **love **of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God,

• (Romans 15:30)
  And **grieve **not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.
  [*](Ephesians 4:30)
  WILLS
  But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.
  [*](1 Corinthians 12:11)
  ​

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Can you tell me why there are over 3000 denominations of Christianity therefore please?

Very good question, because the Devil wants to split of Christianity. Not everyone agrees with each other on various matters, but
that doesn’t make Christianity not true. We are ALL in agreement on the most fun-
damental points of Christianity, though some’ll
question the need of a pope, others hate bishops, everybody wants to be their own
priest, but here’s a video worth considering:youtube.com/watch?v=MZ5tEzXxSvs

Who is the Advocate?
Is He the same as the Spirit of Truth?

Yes, both describe the Holy Spirit.

No I don’t think God can be put under a microscope, but the whole concept of “incarnation” says that He can… as does the concept of the Eucharist…

No it doesn’t. God can give himself for us to study and to learn, but
we can’t know everything about God which is what you’re suggest–
ing, because there CAN’T BE a mystery about God. And the Incar-
nation and the Eucharist are not exactly decent parallels.

Agreed, but why limit yourself to a 2000 year old document of restricted authenticity?

Because I prefer 2,000 year old true books over false prophets.

Yes, the human minds of me, you and the Apostles are NOTHING compared to God Himself.

Let God explain what the meanings are, not the Apostles. As the Prophet Daniel said Himself, the meanings of the Books is sealed until the time of the end. So why would the Apostles assume that they are privy to the meanings suddenly?

There’s not even a better word I could use in response to this than “Stupid.” Why? Daniel is not talking about the Bible, but a
single scroll, the seals of which which Jesus himself would break. Not talking about
the same thing here. Now, Jesus came to
be the Revelation of God the Father, and to whom was he revealed most? The Apostles.

My friend, when you say that “God was contained within the 4 walls of the Temple” it is not a sign that “God is not so infinite” it is a sign that "you didn’t get the point"

If God can be LITERALLY contained then He immediately is no God anymore, so maybe, just maybe it didn’t literally happen, but rather, as scholars are increasingly pointing out these days, the way things were communicated in those times was a lot more allegorical and metaphorical, rather than literal…

No, God can be in one place and everywhere all at the same time. You limit God in that
respect, saying that it just can’t be, my human brain cannot understand that therefore it
isn’t true. Sorry, no.

You don’t need to worship a God that you don’t comprehend. This is the EXACT reason why God sends to you and I an “epistemological God” called Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

Why would I worship a god that I can fully understand? If I fully understand God then I am his equal.
As a Christian, I don’t think it’s cool to bring man up to the level of God or to bring God down to our
level. There really can’t be a way to bridge the difference between Creature and Creator, is it that dif-
ficult to understand?

THE HOLY SPIRIT NEVER STOPS WORKING DEAR FRIEND
…but at some point people think they are recipients of the Holy Spirit when in reality it is only our vain imaginings…

.

The Holy Spirit apparently stopped guiding the Church very early on in your view, because the
Baha’i say that Christianity is not true, that it doesn’t understand the nature of God or of Jesus,
so it is a reasonable conclusion that in the Baha’i Faith, the Holy Spirit never was there in the
first place.

 

[Tom_Baum]

“I will send the simple to confound the wise and learned”.

If the Good News is not Good News for all than it is not Good News at all.

This ‘good enough for some news’, which many call good news, would in fact be horrific news.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Dear friend, I am not making the conclusions. I’m not the one coming up with offices, persons and substances… I take it on face value and hope that God will reveal His nature a little bit more, authoritatively…which He has…

Face-Value is the exact same thing. You focus on one verse, then derive the
meaning of that one verse all by yourself, refusing thus to let the Bible explain.

Again, if The Father is greater in ANY capacity than the Son, then the Son cannot be God, for there cannot be anything greater than the one God…

That is an assumption on your part that the “greater” is in reference to some sort of capacity.

Why is the accurate reading of Scripture with precision and clarity depressing for you? I find it exhilaratingly liberating

No no, you missed what I meant. You don’t want to see the Word as God, so you avoid
what the text says and insert your own meanings into the Gospel. That is depressing.

Okay, please show me other verses which can offer a more wholistic and total understanding that Jesus is God…

When Jesus identified himself with the I AM, when Thomas saw the resurrected Christ and explained
TO Jesus “My Lord and My God” (yet no rebuttal from Jesus), any verse in which the original Greek
uses the word monogenes in reference to Jesus, indicating that he is the unique Son of God, not just
one in creation or adoption, but is of the exact same nature as God the Father, the same being.

After all the evidence provided to the contrary, you resort back to what is unscriptural…

How so?

This contradicts the reality that Jesus, as a supposed incarnated entity, was His (Jesus’) own independent Being…

That’s right, Jesus is not his own Being, but his own Person. He is One with the Father
and the Holy Spirit, yet is distinct in Person. That is what the Bible indicates, you can’t
accept that, so you need to twist Scripture to have it meet your own conclusions.

No there’s nothing false in it at all. Even “greater in the office of salvation” (whatever that means) implies that there is something greater than God…

Equivocation is a logical fallacy, You can’t just use the word “greater” in one and only one
way in every instance. Now each person of the Trinity VOLUNTARILY assumes a different
role in the salvation of humanity.
It is very typical in Islam to assume that if one has a greater role, obviously
that one must be far better than his other counterparts. Not surprising then
that Baha’u’llah follows that same false philosophy.
In Christianity, The Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit VOLUNTARILY take on different roles,
not because one is stronger than the other, as you presume, but rather it is a willful choice
that the Son submits to the Father and that the Holy Spirit submits to the will of the Father
and the Son. “Greater” does not mean better in this case, don’t read into it.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Thank you, Judas Thaddeus. Of course, Jewish and Hebrew scholars believe that most of these prophecies involve either translation errors, intentional or unintentional, or lifting verses from their narrative and historical context, and have extensively written about this. The prophecies of Isaiah, in particular, have been fertile ground for much discussion and debate.

How very Mormonitious of you.

 

[Kliska]

This is fine. I’m certainly not denying Jesus, nor am I denying His sacrifice to enable us to overcome sin.

This is not a scriptural description of what Jesus’s sacrifice did, and certainly doesn’t explain away the fact that He actually bought us. Jesus became sin for us, and enabled us to have peace between us and God.

I just believe that when the “I am” manifests itself, we all fall into sin again, and another sacrifice needs to be made.

And that is one reason why I say you preach another gospel. There is a sacrifice and it is a once and for all sacrifice. No more sacrifice now remains for sin; Jesus paid it all.

Fair enough, but I feel it is being done respectfully. Please understand that it is not my intention to spit in anyones face, especially the Lord’s!!

And, understand, we are warning for a reason. I understand your intent, and that you believe differently, but we are Christians for a reason, and believe if you pass away while rejecting Jesus as God, bad things are going to happen. Also, it being a public forum we are aware others are reading.

Can you please show me where?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. **24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. **25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Etc, etc…

 

[meltzerboy]

This is not a scriptural description of what Jesus’s sacrifice did, and certainly doesn’t explain away the fact that He actually bought us. Jesus became sin for us, and enabled us to have peace between us and God.

And that is one reason why I say you preach another gospel. There is a sacrifice and it is a once and for all sacrifice. No more sacrifice now remains for sin; Jesus paid it all.

And, understand, we are warning for a reason. I understand your intent, and that you believe differently, but we are Christians for a reason, and believe if you pass away while rejecting Jesus as God, bad things are going to happen. Also, it being a public forum we are aware others are reading.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. **24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. **25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Etc, etc…

Do you mean that Jesus literally “became sin for us”? And, if so, are you saying that G-d can become sin or do you mean that only the human Jesus became sin, or both? Do you believe that Jesus, who is purported to have been sinless during his physical human existence on earth, became the epitome of sin in his death? How could He enter heaven then and join the Father if He is so full of sin; wouldn’t He have to be cleansed and free of sin? Finally, is this strictly a Protestant view or do Catholics also believe that Jesus literally took on all the sins of humanity and, in so doing, paid its ransom?

 

[daler]

Do you mean that Jesus literally “became sin for us”? And, if so, are you saying that G-d can become sin or do you mean that only the human Jesus became sin, or both? Do you believe that Jesus, who is purported to have been sinless during his physical human existence on earth, became the epitome of sin in his death? How could He enter heaven then and join the Father if He is so full of sin; wouldn’t He have to be cleansed and free of sin? Finally, is this strictly a Protestant view or do Catholics also believe that Jesus literally took on all the sins of humanity and, in so doing, paid its ransom?

meltzer,
. I’m not an expert on any of this, but in the Jewish tradition there was the scapegoat, right? Once a year the people symbolically put their sins on this scapegoat and sent it away.

. This would serve as a psychological tool, to help, for example, a child who is overcome by guilt or shame, “That its “Ok”… Everything 's going to be Ok… You made a boo boo, but now you’re forgiven. So go out and play, Johnny.”

. And Johnny goes out and plays with a smile on his face and gets on with his life.

. Well, adults do some terrible things, and when the conscience kicks in, we can really be overcome by guilt and shame - paralyzed by it, in fact, and totally dysfunctional and shut down as individuals or a society.

. If, when people are in the stage of assessing themselves, bringing themselves to account, they will either go into denial or rebel, getting worse, or try to own up to their faults and misbehaviors, or sins. When the sins are far in excess of their capacity to forgive themselves, i.e., lets say you were drunk driving and killed a family on the wrong side of the road (this happened to a friend of mine in high school)

. Now you cannot possibly bring that family back to life, but people don’t expect you to go out and kill yourself. They just want you to quit drinking and live a healthy, productive life, and contribute to the well-being of others. “Drive and drink no more…” Maybe you go on to become a doctor and save a hundred lives… that sort of thing.

. So Jesus sacrifice is seen in that sort of light, in my understanding. But there’s still more to life than just having your sins atoned for. We still have to become productive citizens, which we can do if we are freed from excessive guilt, and then move on.

.

 

[meltzerboy]

meltzer,
. I’m not an expert on any of this, but in the Jewish tradition there was the scapegoat, right? Once a year the people symbolically put their sins on this scapegoat and sent it away.

. This would serve as a psychological tool, to help, for example, a child who is overcome by guilt or shame, “That its “Ok”… Everything 's going to be Ok… You made a boo boo, but now you’re forgiven. So go out and play, Johnny.”

. And Johnny goes out and plays with a smile on his face and gets on with his life.

. Well, adults do some terrible things, and when the conscience kicks in, we can really be overcome by guilt and shame - paralyzed by it, in fact, and totally dysfunctional and shut down as individuals or a society.

. If, when people are in the stage of assessing themselves, bringing themselves to account, they will either go into denial or rebel, getting worse, or try to own up to their faults and misbehaviors, or sins. When the sins are far in excess of their capacity to forgive themselves, i.e., lets say you were drunk driving and killed a family on the wrong side of the road (this happened to a friend of mine in high school)

. Now you cannot possibly bring that family back to life, but people don’t expect you to go out and kill yourself. They just want you to quit drinking and live a healthy, productive life, and contribute to the well-being of others. “Drive and drink no more…” Maybe you go on to become a doctor and save a hundred lives… that sort of thing.

. So Jesus sacrifice is seen in that sort of light, in my understanding. But there’s still more to life than just having your sins atoned for. We still have to become productive citizens, which we can do if we are freed from excessive guilt, and then move on.

.

Yes, the scapegoat was symbolic, the external manifestation of internal repentance from sin, but this is not the same as literally putting one’s sins on Jesus, who Christians believe to be G-d Himself.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Incarnation,

newadvent.org/fathers/2802.htm

4th Ecumenical Council.

Confession of Chalcedon provides a clear statement on the human and divine nature of Christ

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐν δύο φύσεσιν ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως, ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως – in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ecumenical_Council

Work continued on the Incarnation through St Maximus the Confessor with the east/wast church’s, and through to today, the short of the answer would be, no-sin. Course that’s the orthodox version, I haven’t heard the continuity of the other response’s below the council.

 

[Kliska]

Do you mean that Jesus literally “became sin for us”? And, if so, are you saying that G-d can become sin or do you mean that only the human Jesus became sin, or both? Do you believe that Jesus, who is purported to have been sinless during his physical human existence on earth, became the epitome of sin in his death? How could He enter heaven then and join the Father if He is so full of sin; wouldn’t He have to be cleansed and free of sin? Finally, is this strictly a Protestant view or do Catholics also believe that Jesus literally took on all the sins of humanity and, in so doing, paid its ransom?

There’s a ton of theology here, lets start with my quote;

2 Corinthians 5: 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Remember the Isaiah verses; Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5** But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities**: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So, the good news is that indeed all sin was laid upon the Lamb; Jesus, and the sacrifice was in payment. The judgment of God the Father was landed on God the Son, and the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, and did not raise physically til 3 days later, and only ascended after that in a glorified state.