What is the Gospel?

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MrZetterlund said:
Oh, C’mon! Who doesn’t know the greatest story ever told? God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life! The word “Christ” means “promised one” or “messiah” He is the New Covenant of God’s mercy. To replace the Old Covenant (which was broken) and to bring the God of Isreal to the gentiles. (“Gentiles” means one outside the covenant of Abraham)
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Great!

Now we have two Bible Christians squaring off over what the Gospel is.

I knew this would be interesting when I posted it.

🍿
 
Philthy said:
Im not sure what your intended point was, but if it was an argument for the sufficiency of Scripture alone, you failed IMHO.
St Paul’s “reasoning” with them and his “explaining and proving” cannot be separated from Paul, who had the charism of infallibility and who had been appointed by God for this purpose. If Scripture alone were sufficient, Paul might simply have pointed out which verses required addl reflection. It is significant that the Scriptures alone were insufficient in Pauls estimation - otherwise he would not have felt the need to “explain and reason” what the Word of God meant.
Also, you may have missed my post above on what “the Gospel” is…we were posting simultaneously.
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Philthy said:
I’m not sure where all the chatter is going here. Perhaps we are a little too used to arguing about things that we disagree on that we argue about things we can otherwise agree on? :hmmm:
The “nutshell” Gospel is indeed well summarized in John 3:16. God loves us and has reconciled us to himself through the life death and resurrection of Jesus. There is certainly more to the good news, however. Christ has sent his Holy Spirit to guide us and strengthen us on the journey. Why? In the mystery of God’s plan, God allows us to cooperate with his Spirit in accomplishing the salvation of mankind. This is just as mysterious as the actuality of God becoming man to accomplish our redemption.
In addition, we still have a struggle ahead of us despite the fact that Jesus Christ has conquered sin and is seated at the Father’s right hand interceding for us. That struggle involves persevering in faith, hope and love until the end of our mortal lives. This is only possible by remaining united to Christ, apart from whom we remain doomed to eternal separation from God.
It is perhaps the details of how we remain united to Christ and the manner in which the Holy Spirit works in the Church that some of the disagreement exists. I havent seen anyone actually address this issue, however, so it remains unclear.
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I believe God is the gospel. Do you think that there is more than God Himself? Can we agree that God sent His Son into this sin cursed world to suffer and die to bring the ungodly to Himself for the purpose of glorifying Him and enjoying Him forever?
 
fhansen said:
No, they won’t. It will come back to the fact that, while we both believe in sanctification-and can agree on it’s definition, Catholics still believe sanctification and justification are inseparable-that God’s in the business of erasing past sins, then molding people into beings who are authentically righteous.
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I think we will both agree that God will make his chosen ones grow in personal righteousness through the Spirit. It is the mission of God the Holy Spirit to transform us into the image of Christ. However, our growth of being made righteous is never the basis of our standing before God. We have peace with God and eternally adopted in the family of God on the basis of a perfect righteousness of another (Jesus Christ). We have been reconciled. God does not grade on a curve. Perfection and sinlessness is the requirement into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is at hand in one sense for believers; therefore, we need Christ as our mediator to be in His kingdom right now and forever. Why are you able to approach the throne of grace today if you have not been made perfect yet? Do you have eternal peace with God? It is a promise of God that He will finish the work that He started in us.

Peace with God Through Faith

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Rom 5

Jesus the Great High Priest

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 4
 
bookgirl32 said:
Oh, so not every interpretation is correct?
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That’s right sister. We know the Apostle Paul wrote that we all know in part as individual Christians and corporately. Jesus rebukes the various churches in Revelation for their errors in life and/or doctrine.

A Worker Approved by God

Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
2 Tim 2
 
2nd_Adam said:
Why are you able to approach the throne of grace today if you have not been made perfect yet? Do you have eternal peace with God? It is a promise of God that He will finish the work that He started in us.
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I can approach the throne because Christ won for me that ability, dying for me while I’m yet in my sins, but the gospel in no way ends there. He won’t be satisfied until I’m completely, truly cleaned-free from sin. Sin by definition separates us from God-we’re not capable of seeing Him if we’re still, in reality, attached to anything other than Him. We believe in His promise that He’ll complete the work He started but we must still do our part in working out our salvation. We’re the wild card in the process, not Him. And that’s what makes it so good-because if and when we finally turn fully to Him, loving Him with our whole our souls, mind and strength-placing nothing on a higher level-which is our perfection, then we’ll have become the beings He desires us to be-who know for themselves why they’ve chosen to be one in will with His will-this is a prize truly worth striving for.

As a Protestant, I had 100% certainty of my salvation. As a Catholic I have, say 99%, maybe 98 :). Aside from acknowledging my natural human limitations- which means I can’t be 100% certain of anything, there also has to be a little “edge” present, at least a bit of uncertainty -about whether or not I’m numbered among the elect. And if this were not so, there’d be no reason for the Parable of the Ten Virgins to exhort us to keep oil for our lamps, or the Parable of the Talents to admonish us to invest what’s been given us, or for Paul to exhort believers to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. These all speak of the possibly of grace received and grace rejected- it’s not a slam-dunk for any of us. And I think we already know that in our hearts. If Protestants think we’re being arrogant by believing we have any role to play in our salvation, Catholics think it’s arrogant to be over-confident in any case.
 
2nd_Adam said:
That’s right sister. We know the Apostle Paul wrote that we all know in part as individual Christians and corporately. Jesus rebukes the various churches in Revelation for their errors in life and/or doctrine.

A Worker Approved by God

Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
2 Tim 2
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So, if you believe that not every interpretation is correct, then does it follow to say that the Bible needs an authoritative interpreter?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I believe God is the gospel.

You are mistaken. God is a being, the gospel is not. The gospel is unique to Christianity, God is not. etc etcYou will have to do much better in your explanations of your thoughts if you wish to communicate something meaningful.
Do you think that there is more than God Himself?
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2nd Adam;:
I think we will both agree that God will make his chosen ones grow in personal righteousness through the Spirit.
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I dont agree with this. Humans “make” robots do things. Oppressors “make” their captives do things. God doesnt “make” us grow in holiness - he offers us the gift of growing in holiness. It requires our acceptance of the gift and persevering in faith, hope and love.
 
2nd_Adam said:
However, our growth of being made righteous is never the basis of our standing before God. We have peace with God and eternally adopted in the family of God on the basis of a perfect righteousness of another (Jesus Christ).
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Now Im a little confused by your gospel. Are you saying everyone is saved since our standing before God was established by Christ? That would be a logical conclusion of your claim that John 3:16 is the gospel in a “nutshell” since that verse says that God loves “the world”, right? John 16 seems to include everyone in the world without exception as being loved by God - so loved, that He sent his son for them. So if Christ was sent for all, and God promises - as you say - to “finish the work he began” on their behalf (ie their redemption by His Son), then everyone must be assured of salvation.
Perhaps Im missing something that you would like to clarify in your version of the Gospel.

Peace be with you!
 
2nd_Adam said:
I think we will both agree that God will make his chosen ones grow in personal righteousness through the Spirit. It is the mission of God the Holy Spirit to transform us into the image of Christ. However, our growth of being made righteous is never the basis of our standing before God. We have peace with God and eternally adopted in the family of God on the basis of a perfect righteousness of another (Jesus Christ). We have been reconciled. God does not grade on a curve. Perfection and sinlessness is the requirement into the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is at hand in one sense for believers; therefore, we need Christ as our mediator to be in His kingdom right now and forever. Why are you able to approach the throne of grace today if you have not been made perfect yet? Do you have eternal peace with God? It is a promise of God that He will finish the work that He started in us.
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Just in case my previous posts arent clear enough… OSAS is not part of the Gospel!
 
fhansen said:
I can approach the throne because Christ won for me that ability, dying for me while I’m yet in my sins, but the gospel in no way ends there. He won’t be satisfied until I’m completely, truly cleaned-free from sin. Sin by definition separates us from God-we’re not capable of seeing Him if we’re still, in reality, attached to anything other than Him. We believe in His promise that He’ll complete the work He started but we must still do our part in working out our salvation. We’re the wild card in the process, not Him. And that’s what makes it so good-because if and when we finally turn fully to Him, loving Him with our whole our souls, mind and strength-placing nothing on a higher level-which is our perfection, then we’ll have become the beings He desires us to be-who know for themselves why they’ve chosen to be one in will with His will-this is a prize truly worth striving for.

As a Protestant, I had 100% certainty of my salvation. As a Catholic I have, say 99%, maybe 98 :). Aside from acknowledging my natural human limitations- which means I can’t be 100% certain of anything, there also has to be a little “edge” present, at least a bit of uncertainty -about whether or not I’m numbered among the elect. And if this were not so, there’d be no reason for the Parable of the Ten Virgins to exhort us to keep oil for our lamps, or the Parable of the Talents to admonish us to invest what’s been given us, or for Paul to exhort believers to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. These all speak of the possibly of grace received and grace rejected- it’s not a slam-dunk for any of us. And I think we already know that in our hearts. If Protestants think we’re being arrogant by believing we have any role to play in our salvation, Catholics think it’s arrogant to be over-confident in any case.
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To the Protestant, we can give God all the glory for saving and transforming sinners into the image of God, to the praise of His glorious grace. Of confidence is not in ourselves; our total confidence is in God and His promises, because it is impossible for God to lie. IF we boast, we boast in the Lord only. Christ is completely sufficient for us.

To the Catholic, he is control of his own fate. The Catholic is sovereign over his final destiny, and can give God 98% of the glory for his salvation. Is this the logical conclusion of official Catholic theology? In your posting, you can say that Christ is 98% sufficient, but your 2% can nullify the work of God which was merited by the life and death of Christ.
 
bookgirl32 said:
So, if you believe that not every interpretation is correct, then does it follow to say that the Bible needs an authoritative interpreter?
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Do you understand that just a few verses are actually interpreted for you as a Catholic? The majority of the Scirpture verses do not have official Catholic interpretations.
 
2nd_Adam said:
To the Protestant, we can give God all the glory for saving and transforming sinners into the image of God, to the praise of His glorious grace. Of confidence is not in ourselves; our total confidence is in God and His promises, because it is impossible for God to lie. IF we boast, we boast in the Lord only. Christ is completely sufficient for us.

To the Catholic, he is control of his own fate. The Catholic is sovereign over his final destiny, and can give God 98% of the glory for his salvation. Is this the logical conclusion of official Catholic theology? In your posting, you can say that Christ is 98% sufficient, but your 2% can nullify the work of God which was merited by the life and death of Christ.
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I can say that God leaves whatever part of my destiny in my hands that He wants to, according to His sovereign will and unquestionable wisdom.
 
fhansen said:
I can approach the throne because Christ won for me that ability, dying for me while I’m yet in my sins, but the gospel in no way ends there. He won’t be satisfied until I’m completely, truly cleaned-free from sin. Sin by definition separates us from God-we’re not capable of seeing Him if we’re still, in reality, attached to anything other than Him. We believe in His promise that He’ll complete the work He started but we must still do our part in working out our salvation. We’re the wild card in the process, not Him. And that’s what makes it so good-because if and when we finally turn fully to Him, loving Him with our whole our souls, mind and strength-placing nothing on a higher level-which is our perfection, then we’ll have become the beings He desires us to be-who know for themselves why they’ve chosen to be one in will with His will-this is a prize truly worth striving for.

As a Protestant, I had 100% certainty of my salvation. As a Catholic I have, say 99%, maybe 98 :). Aside from acknowledging my natural human limitations- which means I can’t be 100% certain of anything, there also has to be a little “edge” present, at least a bit of uncertainty -about whether or not I’m numbered among the elect. And if this were not so, there’d be no reason for the Parable of the Ten Virgins to exhort us to keep oil for our lamps, or the Parable of the Talents to admonish us to invest what’s been given us, or for Paul to exhort believers to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. These all speak of the possibly of grace received and grace rejected- it’s not a slam-dunk for any of us. And I think we already know that in our hearts. If Protestants think we’re being arrogant by believing we have any role to play in our salvation, Catholics think it’s arrogant to be over-confident in any case.
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fhansen said:
I can say that God leaves whatever part of my destiny in my hands that He wants to, according to His sovereign will and unquestionable wisdom.
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So, you would have to conclude that you are in charge of your ultimate eternal fate; therefore, you are sovereign in salvation, correct?
 
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