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2nd_Adam
Guest
I’m confused by what you need to be clarified. Can you ask again? Do you believe we have different gospels as in Galatians 1?
- Status
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree with the authority of the Apostles found in the Scriptures. We both can agree on that truth. That’s quite different than apostolic succesion since the succeeding Popes were not apostles, correct? As a Protesant, I see that the writings of the Apostles in Scripture as being authorative over and above apparent successors. I know the Catholic Church does not believe that ongoing Sacred Tradition is ongoing new revelation. However, Protestants see that quite differently. I really believe the authority issue is another thread topic and should not detract from the gospel thread.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think Scripture reveals something much different than what you posted.It was Jesus Christ’s Gospel, and it came first from St. Peter. It was St. Peter who gave St. Paul the authority to preach, in the first place, remember?
St. Paul was not telling St. Peter something he had never heard of before - rather, he was reminding him of the law that he himself had made binding on the whole Church. Also, he makes a big deal of the fact that he told St. Peter this, but if St. Peter was a follower of St. Paul, then what’s the big deal? Followers are supposed to do as they are told; there is nothing in particular to brag about when they do.
Galatians
Paul Called by God
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. [3] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, [4] and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to [5] me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; [6] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.
Paul Accepted by the Apostles
2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think Scripture reveals something much different than what you posted.It was Jesus Christ’s Gospel, and it came first from St. Peter. It was St. Peter who gave St. Paul the authority to preach, in the first place, remember?
St. Paul was not telling St. Peter something he had never heard of before - rather, he was reminding him of the law that he himself had made binding on the whole Church. Also, he makes a big deal of the fact that he told St. Peter this, but if St. Peter was a follower of St. Paul, then what’s the big deal? Followers are supposed to do as they are told; there is nothing in particular to brag about when they do.
Paul Called by God
11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. [3] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, [4] and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to [5] me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; [6] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.
Paul Accepted by the Apostles
2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— 5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Gal 1 and 2
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! - PaulI am confused why you would not see this as “good news”.
It seems to me that the prospect of being fully, finally and completely delivered from sin, and our sin nature, to be able to love as God loves, to see Him as He really is!
The two are not separated. God has delivered the ungodly and the wicked, and is making our hearts of stone into a heart of flesh. God does not just declare us clean, then stop, he goes on to make us actually clean - fit vessels for worship and service. How is this not good news?
All Christians look forward to the day when our battle of the remaining flesh is over. We all yearn for that day when that battle is over. In Romans 8, we are told to mortify the flesh that remains in us. The Christian life is a struggle in which we press on. However, within that struggle, we have both victories and defeats; it is signficant to understand that the battle is already won at the cross in regards to our standing before God. We have peace with God because Christ’s righteousness has been provided for us through faith as being eternally sufficient in our reconcilation with God, and our adoption. God the Holy Spirit is in us as our deposit of this spiritual reality. Assurance based on faith in Christ in what He has done for us by His life and death on our account is biblical assurace. When we put our faith (trust) in Christ’s righteousness as our only grounds for our standing before God, I believe this kind of faith pleases God as well as receiving this truth transforms our hearts in which enables us to grow in personal holiness. We began to grow in personal obedience with the correct motive of gratitude as compare to meriting or mainting our peace with God as redeemned children of God. Salvation is a gift of God which glorifies God. The person and work of Christ is not 98% sufficent for us for our reconcilation with God; it is rather 100% sufficent for our reconcilation and adoption resulting in peace with God. The war is over dear brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. God is our eternal Heavenly Father. Who can seperated us from the love of God (Rom 8)?
The Law and Sin
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. - Romans
P
Philthy
Guest
Sure. You made this statement:
2nd Adam:
And I responded with this:
So my questions are:
- Q1: Is** it part of the Gospel that God only chooses SOME to be made holy?** If so, how is this consistent with the “nutshell” gospel that God loves “the world” and sent his son for the wicked?
- **Q2: Is it part of the Gospel that we cannot reject God’s grace? **Is it part of the Gospel that God makes (ie irregardless of our will) us holy or must those of us with a functioning will allow/cooperate with God to be made holy?
C
clmowry
Guest
I am unaware of Catholic teaching that the Holy Spirit will “illuminate” scripture to individuals.
Could you show me where you think this is taught by th Catholic Church?
Chuck
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
2 timothy 3:16 gives an answer to your question…Nice sidestep. What did the Holy Spirit inspire the rest of the Bible for, if the entire message of God is contained in two verses?
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
I think that would be what we call Holy scripture.
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
THE GOSPEL IS THE MESSAGE OF WHAT GOD HAS DONE FOR US.
1 Now I make known to you, brethren,** the gospel which I preached to you**, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, **that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, **
1 Now I make known to you, brethren,** the gospel which I preached to you**, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, **that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, **
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Deliverence from sin and the punishment of the LAW! is part of the foundation of the gospel i just quoted from Paul.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Yes, that is what YOU would call it.
However, the complete Word of God includes oral tradition and written tradition.
Many non-Catholic Christians ignore the former and accept a truncated version of the latter.
Naturally, there are complications arising from those decisions…
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
SIDEBAR DISCUSSION
In your opinion, what book would you recommend to someone interested in learning about the Catholic understanding of salvation or “the Gospel”?
I’m thinking of a layman’s soup-to-nuts guide to justification, sanctification, indulgences, merit, etc.
I own several good books which cover this subject, but I’m interested to learn what other people are reading and recommending. Thanks.
(I’m making this a sidebar in this thread because I think it is relevant and important.)
In your opinion, what book would you recommend to someone interested in learning about the Catholic understanding of salvation or “the Gospel”?
I’m thinking of a layman’s soup-to-nuts guide to justification, sanctification, indulgences, merit, etc.
I own several good books which cover this subject, but I’m interested to learn what other people are reading and recommending. Thanks.
(I’m making this a sidebar in this thread because I think it is relevant and important.)
F
fhansen
Guest
It might be a little more academic than you’re thinking but I’m a layman who’s benefited greatly from Ludwig Otts’ “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Are Catholics encouraged to read Scripture on their own? If so, don’t you guys believe that God the Holy Spirit is illuminating the Scriptures in your private reading in conformity to the Catholic Faith? Even if you did private Scripture reading alongside with the Catholic Catechism, you would still believe that God the Holy Spirit is illuminating Scripture truth to you, correct?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
A1 - I think if you finish the entire John 3:16, you will find the answer you are seeking. There is a qualification for those who will have eternal life. What is it?
A2- I’m not sure if you are referencing TULIP (5 points of Calvinism) with your question. TULIP is not the gospel itself. I believe conversion or Protestant justification is an act of God (monergism) in which we are passive. In our lives as Christians, it is a cooperation between God and man (synergestic)… but God does have His means to deal with us when we do not cooperate (Hebrews 12) because He promises to finish the work the He started.
To understand Protestants, the key really has to do with our view of a forensic justification, and our view of penal substituion. You don’t have to agree with us, but if you want to understand where we are coming from, it is based on the foundation of an imputed righteousness of Christ to our account throught the instrument of faith.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
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2nd_Adam
Guest
LOL… well how about at least Romans chapter 1 through 4 for starters.
B
bookgirl32
Guest
HOw does he “illuminate” (as oppose to interpret? You said He interpreted) to individuals? And what do you mean by "corporately? And does He choose different verses to “illuminate” to individuals vs. ones to illuminate corporately?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Catholics are encouraged to read scripture on their own; however, there is no assurance that the individual will be protected from error by the Holy Spirit in the same manner that the Church is.
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