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2nd_Adam
Guest
I agree that the Word of God according to the Catholic Catechism is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. However, I do not believe 2 Tim 3:16 applies to Sacred Tradition according to the Catholic Church, correct?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
The Apostle Paul clearly revealed that everyone knows in part. For those who are united to Christ, we are led by the Spirit imperfectly. That’s why we have an internal battle in this life.
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jmcrae
Guest
“Born again” is the Sacrament of Baptism, in which we are spiritually reborn in water and the Holy Spirit. The “Kingdom of God” is the Church in its three states - Militant (here on earth), Suffering (in Purgatory), and Triumphant (in Heaven).Thanks for trying…
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
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jmcrae
Guest
Sacred Tradition is what gives us the ability to understand Scripture. For example, if I didn’t know anything about the Ministry of Reconciliation, then when St. Paul mentions it in his letters, I would just think he was using fancy-talk for some kind of ordinary thing, and just glide my eyes past that passage while wondering in passing what he might be talking about - but when I know what the Ministry of Reconciliation is, then that passage jumps right off the page and makes perfect sense to me.
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Philthy
Guest
I disagree with your disagreement. Your beliefs are grounded upon your personal understanding of Sacred Scripture. We could discuss it further, but that would require a focused dialogue that you have yet to demonstrate a willingness or capacity to engage in.
Peace be with you!
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jmcrae
Guest
So, you can’t actually know who is being led by the Holy Spirit, and who is not - nor whether you are, or not. So much for God revealing Himself in the Scriptures. You can’t tell whether it’s really Him, or a counterfeit, because you can only see imperfectly.
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jmcrae
Guest
If they are pushed away from the Church by the fact that two people occasionally tiff, they would not make it in an ordinary parish of the Catholic Church, anyway - we are not all sunshine and roses, sorry!
On the other hand, you don’t have to be perfect, yet, to be able to join up.
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tweetymom
Guest
Sorry you feel hostility between Randy and myself. I have nothing against him at all. He thinks I am not what I should be ie. agree with him.
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guanophore
Guest
It is not hard to understand. We understand it fine, and we understand that Jesus founded a Church, through which He brings that Gospel to the world. He gave his HS to protect that Church from error, and used that church to produce the NT, which is profitable in the mission He ordained for the Church.
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guanophore
Guest
No, it is not a “low view” of the Scripture. What Jesus is saying is that it is in Himself that Life is found. The Scriptures, Holy as they are, do not shed blood to purchase eternal life for us.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Where’s the post that I was addressing?
Of course I am in complete agreement that both the OT and NT point to the person and work of Jesus Christ for life!. You know that this has always been what I believed and posted from the very beginning at Catholic Answers. I have no idea what you are referencing my quote from; therefore, it appears to be a distortion of what I posted in it’s proper context.
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. - John 5
On another note, we are all waiting for you on the sufficiency thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054
:grouphug:
Hey brother,
Of course I am in complete agreement that both the OT and NT point to the person and work of Jesus Christ for life!. You know that this has always been what I believed and posted from the very beginning at Catholic Answers. I have no idea what you are referencing my quote from; therefore, it appears to be a distortion of what I posted in it’s proper context.
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. - John 5
On another note, we are all waiting for you on the sufficiency thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054
:grouphug:
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Philthy
Guest
I dont find anything particularly debatable in this brief discussion by RC Sproul. God’s drawing us is a work of God which precedes faith. Is that controversial? I dont think that is a point of contention…
Being born again or regenerated is only part of the gospel, however. Why? Because being born again does not guarantee inheriting the kingdom of God (ie spending eternity in Heaven). Heaven is our goal, being born again is a crucial means toward that goal but regeneration, alone, does not accomplish it.
Peace be with you!
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tweetymom
Guest
Thanks my dear brother in Christ,went there.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
That’s amazing! That would place you into the Augustinian camp within the Catholic Faith. I read that Pope Benedict is an Augustinian in thought and theology!
In contrast, when my dear Arminian Protestant siblings hear that Reformed Christians believe that regeneration comes before faith, they get bent out of shape like Gumby and Pokee.
http://www.appscout.com/gumby.bmp
Regeneration comes before faith!
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fhansen
Guest
The Catholic position would be that a person is quickened by grace to believe in the truths proposed and so the action of God in that area precedes faith. But we would not believe that complete regeneration/salvation takes place at that time-only the initiation of it.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
The words quickened by grace is similar to the Reformed view of being quickened by the Holy Spirit. Maybe this word quickened is King James language?
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Arminian Protestant Christians don’t really believe that God the Holy Spirit quickens us to regeneration. I believe they would say that the Spirit woos all mankind to Christ in a less effectual way.
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fhansen
Guest
**This is from the 6th session of the Council of Trent:
CHAPTER V.
On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.
The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient [Page 33] grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God.**
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I find this stuff to be very interesting and good stuff to reflect upon. I like orthodox Catholic theology. It’s the cafeteria Catholic beliefs that are hard to swallow at times. It seems we are drifting away from the thread topic of “what is the gospel”. Maybe the subject of quickening should be discussed on a TULIP thread or something related to it? Let’s get back to the thread topic of “what is the gospel?”.
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bookgirl32
Guest
2nd Adam, you never addressed my question above.
For reference sake, it was in response to this statement made by you:
I asked you how you would know when the visible Church “drifts”. You answered this:
To which I asked the above question that you have yet to answer. Will you answer it?
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Philthy
Guest
I’m glad I have managed to not offend you with my comments!
Except within the context of a “works salvation” mentality (ie Jewish, Muslim) I dont think its particularly useful to debate such issues. Certainly not among Christians. It is clear that God “saved us - not because of any righteous deeds, but because of his love through the bath of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit”. The question that I believe needs to be answered clearly in the context of this thread is, “Now that I have
been regenerated, what must I do, or avoid doing to remain united to Christ so that when I die I will be judged “a good and faithful servant” and enter Heaven”? This is the fundamental divide within Christianity: Now that I have repented and have been baptized and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, is there anything I must do to ensure my eternal reward (Heaven)? Is there anything I must avoid doing? Or, is it “all God” and nothing I do matters?
What say you?
Peace be with you!
- Status