What is the 'great apostasy' claimed by Mormons?

[TexanKnight]

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Replenish? Sure sounds like a do-over…

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Let’s get back to the OP TK.
Please show us this ‘huge evidence’ mentioned on another thread.

 

[TexanKnight]

Replenish- 1. to make full or complete again.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ah…so creating the world and then killing all but 8 is not a do-over?

Interesting

God maintaining a covenant with 8 people, means the covenant was continuous. It is very interesting to notice what God actually does, instead of making things up.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Replenish- 1. to make full or complete again.

The OP please.

 

[TexanKnight]

Let’s get back to the OP TK.
Please show us this ‘huge evidence’ mentioned on another thread.

If you do not know the History of the Catholic Church, please say so…Luther is a nice start…though things were happening long before then

 

[Son_of_Niall]

If you do not know the History of the Catholic Church, please say so…Luther is a nice start…though things were happening long before then

Okay, let me talk slowly.

Answer…the…OP.
Please…provide…this…‘huge’ evidence’ of the ‘great apostasy’.
And be specific.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Replenish- 1. to make full or complete again.

From an existing people in an existing covenant.

 

[TexanKnight]

From an existing people in an existing covenant.

Well…the Bible indicates that God thought it was a do-over…

Course, He could have just done a miracle to help people see that their conduct was wrong…

but he decided to kill everyone but 8…and every animal but 2 each…so they could REPLENISH

or…in other words…start over.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Return to the topic of the OP.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What do they believe were the steps that led to it?

Gradual loss of the Gospel truth, culminating in loss of priesthood authority. The dates various Mormons provide for this event varies, from the death of John the Evangelist to the First Council of Nicaea.

They have no historical evidence for this other than, Joseph Smith said so.

 

[TexanKnight]

Gradual loss of the Gospel truth, culminating in loss of priesthood authority. The dates various Mormons provide for this event varies, from the death of John the Evangelist to the First Council of Nicaea.

They have no historical evidence for this other than, Joseph Smith said so.

There was a continual destruction of the values Christ set up. There was a huge turning away from His teachings…this eventually led to much of the world accepting that the Catholic Church was no longer led by God…it resulted in the Reformation…I am waiting on a Moderator to advise how much I can list of the plethora of issues

 

[Stephen168]

Gradual loss of the Gospel truth, culminating in loss of priesthood authority. The dates various Mormons provide for this event varies, from the death of John the Evangelist to the First Council of Nicaea.

They have no historical evidence for this other than, Joseph Smith said so.

Or as late as 570AD

 

[Stephen168]

While Mormonism is anti-Catholic, so they spend a great deal of time attacking the Catholic Church to try to prove an apostasy, they can never prove the early church was Mormon:
Led by a Prophet
Practice polygamy
Revelation on behalf of the whole church
non-black priesthood
Melchizedek Priesthood
Even the eary Mormon Church didn’t’ believe Apostles ran the Church until Brigham Young used them for a power play to gain control.

 

[TexanKnight]

While Mormonism is anti-Catholic, so they spend a great deal of time attacking the Catholic Church to try to prove an apostasy,

simply untrue. Just because we believe there was an Apostasy, and rightly so, does not mean we are anti-Catholic. In fact, LDS leaders were invited to meet with Pope…and they did so. I love the Catholic Church. Most LDS members with whom I speak like the Catholic Church. Please stop playing the victim card.

they can never prove the early church was Mormon:
Led by a Prophet
Revelation on behalf of the whole church
Melchizedek Priesthood

All true…hence the belief in an Apostasy

Even the eary Mormon Church didn’t’ believe Apostles ran the Church until Brigham Young used them for a power play to gain control.

Not true. Just more bashing of the LDs Church

btw…still awaiting an answer from the Moderator

 

[Son_of_Niall]

There was a continual destruction of the values Christ set up. There was a huge turning away from His teachings…this eventually led to much of the world accepting that the Catholic Church was no longer led by God…it resulted in the Reformation…I am waiting on a Moderator to advise how much I can list of the plethora of issues

What are you talking about?
Moderators are not allowed to involve themselves in threads outside of moderating, which he did.
Now, since you brought it up. Give us the ‘list’.

 

[TexanKnight]

What are you talking about?
Moderators are not allowed to involve themselves in threads outside of moderating, which he did.
Now, since you brought it up. Give us the ‘list’.

Sigh…did you not read?

I was once banned for posting similar things. The reason was disrespecting the Catholic Church. Now please back off and stop being a pest I told you I would post once I had the go-ahead from the Mod.

 

[LivingWaters7]

As much as I enjoyed my time as a Mormon (especially the temple), the great apostasy was one of the things that was always in the back of my mind (along with the priesthood/temple ban of blacks until 1978). Mormons make a number of claims related to the apostasy. The main point is that the priesthood authority of the apostles was not transmitted to successors, and therefore the priesthood died out (they do not believe that the bishops were/are the successors of the apostles, instead claiming that apostles and bishops are two different offices, and apostles are necessary to lead the church).

Along with that, they also make claims about purported changes in doctrines (such as the Trinity), as well as changes in ordinances/sacraments (such as the mode of baptism). I found that often, these arguments become incoherent. Firstly, Mormons will often argue against modalism, and not the orthodox Trinity belief which includes the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, who are not each other. You will notice (including right in the book recommended earlier in this thread) that they will ask rhetorical questions like “why would Jesus pray to Himself?” Well, Trinitarians certainly don’t believe such a thing.

As well, you’ll find that arguments they make often condemn themselves. Many Mormons will say that the mode of baptism was changed from immersion to sprinkling (Catholics of course know that immersion has always been a valid and practiced way to baptize, with pouring (not sprinkling) being an additional way). However, when you research temple ordinances in Mormonism, you’ll find that the mode of the initiatory washing and anointing has changed a number of times, where it used to involve an actual bath for the washing, and anointing of specific body points with water. Now, when I went through the ordinance a few years ago, it involves a “symbolic” washing and anointing, with a dab of water and oil placed on the head. When this is brought up, the argument then changes to one of authority, however that wasn’t the original argument.

LDS often point to Biblical verses that they claim predict an apostasy. When one looks at these verses in context, we find that there’s nothing of the sort. There are no verses that point to a total loss of Jesus Christ’s Church from the earth after He established it. Instead, we find many verses supporting the continuity of the covenant that Jesus established.

 

[Stephen168]

simply untrue. Just because we believe there was an Apostasy, and rightly so, does not mean we are anti-Catholic. In fact, LDS leaders were invited to meet with Pope…and they did so. I love the Catholic Church. Most LDS members with whom I speak like the Catholic Church. Please stop playing the victim card.

It is true. That is why you have to wait for the Moderator.

Led by a Prophet
Practice polygamy
Revelation on behalf of the whole church
non-black priesthood
Melchizedek Priesthood

All true…hence the belief in an Apostasy

This are unique Mormon beliefs which were never Christian. They were inventions of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The Mormon Church is an invention not a restoration.

You can never prove the early Church was Mormon.

 

[Stephen168]

Not true. Just more bashing of the LDs Church

Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.

In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, Thomas B. Marsh.
In 1835, The Book of Commandments was rewritten to be Doctrine and Covenants as Smith invented the Melchizedek Priesthood. Joseph Smith claimed he received the ‘keys of the kingdom’ from Peter, James and John.

By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’

In 1837, the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.

In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.

In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.

In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.

In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.

In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.

At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.

As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.

In 1848, Oliver Cowdery said a ‘Holy Angel’ came down and gave the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood.

To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys of the kingdom’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.