What is the History of Your Church?

[JonNC]

Interesting. I too was disgusted with my lifestyle but instead of waiting around for a Catholic, or anyone else to knock on my door, I went out and sought God. I found Him in Holy Mother Church where He’d always been. I was the one running around like a chicken with no head.
Jesus said, “Knock and it shall be opened to you” - not wait for someone else to knock and bring it to you.
And I see JonNC is still trying to incorporate the Catholic Church into Luther’s heresy. Can’t happen Jon. Seriously, go to a couple pre-cat classes and check out The Mother Faith.

Tell you what. I’ll leave what can and can’t happen up to the Holy Spirit, working through our leaders. What you have to say regarding that really has no influence.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon, what would you like to see happen in the Catholic Church so that you yourself along with the entire Lutheran faith would become Catholic?

What would it take?

Ufamtobie

As I mentioned earlier, there are two questions here:

1. What would it take for the Lutheran Church?
   This is difficult for me as a layman to answer because I don’t speak for the Church, or even my synod.
2. What would it take for me?
   There are three things that could happen, not speaking here of a personal rejection of Lutheranism.
   1 - A reconciliation between Rome and my synod, or a Lutheran synod with which I could find myself in agreement with.
   2 - A statement from Rome that the Unaltered Augsburg Confession is (even) essentially a true expression of the catholic faith.
   3 - Reconciliation of Rome with the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates with the Roman patriarchate. This one because it would view it as undeniable and irresistable evidence of the movement of the Holy Spirit within the Church.

Jon

 

[Mikeoffaith]

As I mentioned earlier, there are two questions here:

1. What would it take for the Lutheran Church?
   This is difficult for me as a layman to answer because I don’t speak for the Church, or even my synod.
2. What would it take for me?
   There are three things that could happen, not speaking here of a personal rejection of Lutheranism.
   1 - A reconciliation between Rome and my synod, or a Lutheran synod with which I could find myself in agreement with.
   2 - A statement from Rome that the Unaltered Augsburg Confession is (even) essentially a true expression of the catholic faith.
   3 - Reconciliation of Rome with the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates with the Roman patriarchate. This one because it would view it as undeniable and irresistable evidence of the movement of the Holy Spirit within the Church.

Jon

RE: #2: Wasn’t at one point like in 1976, Ratzinger as Bishop of Munich actually stated that he believed the Roman Church could accept the CA as a completely catholic document?

 

[JonNC]

RE: #2: Wasn’t at one point like in 1976, Ratzinger as Bishop of Munich actually stated that he believed the Roman Church could accept the CA as a completely catholic document?

Perhaps, but Rome hasn’t done so, and he hasn’t done so as pope.
The foundation of the current division is the differences between us as stated in the UAC. If Rome states that a Catholic can in fact confess the UAC, then I nolonger see the reason for separation. For me this would be sufficient, and remember that this is my personal view, not speaking for LCMS or any other Lutheran synod.

Jon

 

[greggy53]

I remember a comment made to me by a Protestant not long after I converted. He said of the Catholic Church, “They’re not very evangelical”. He was right too. It’s one of the church’s failings, at least in the West. The Protestants and the cults have seized the day there.

At least with the evangelicals, people get to hear about Christ. They may, in Catholic eyes, not be in full accord with the truth, but they’re a lot better off making a confession of Christ in any church than in none.

Youre wrong. Just because Catholics in the us aren’t loud and obnoxious with radio stations going from doorto door doesn’t mean we aren’t ministering to the far reaches if the earth in Africa and china And whatnot And helping the unfortunate.

I agree, the evangelicals I know will tell you you don’t have the holy spirit if you are not jumping up and down,clapping your hands and screaming during service. They equate the degree of spirituality with how emotional you are in worship. It’s nonsense
We evangalize best with our actions, with the way we live.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I had a girl in my class whose parents are with that Christian Missionary Alliance this year. I teach sixth grade. The minute mom got a wiff that I was Catholic, she was on me like white on rice all year. The girl’s dad is famous for “Catholics are not Christians” comments. He’s hardcore into “witnessing” at the mall and trying to convert everyone to his little cultish group. They’re a piece of work. There are indeed plenty of nutty evangelicals out there…the snake-handling, screaming, praise band yahoo variety.

But the Lutherans, of whom JonNC belongs, are closer to Catholicism than some in here know. Anglicans in some parts as well. Some of these born-again evangelical types will never embrace ecumenism. The LCMS Lutherans have far more in common with Catholics than some Catholic realize.

I happen to think Jon’s optimism and dreams of reunion and oneness are lovely. I think they should be our hope. But I think the reality within Orthodoxy is a stubborn anti-papalism and they’ve grown so far apart in so many ways. You’d have to overcome their distaste for Augustinian thinking, their views on purgatory and the pope and indulgences and their approach to church polity. And with Protestants there are far more gulfs to overcome. I don’t see it happening, sadly. But I hope Jon is right!

I agree, the evangelicals I know will tell you you don’t have the holy spirit if you are not jumping up and down,clapping your hands and screaming during service. They equate the degree of spirituality with how emotional you are in worship. It’s nonsense
We evangalize best with our actions, with the way we live.

 

[Soldier_X]

So is ecumenical Tim Lincecumism called Ecumenicalincecumism?

Sorry. We now return to the serious discussions of the thread.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

My former Church, the Free Methodist Church, originally split from the Methodist Episcopal Church in the USA in 1860. It split away over two major reason.

The first was the issue of slavery, the Free Methodists did NOT believe that slavery could be excused under any circumstances, that it was inherently wrong. The Methodist-Episcopals (or just plain Methodists) believed that the issue of slavery was one of personal conscience.

The second issue, and the one which in effect gave them their name was over the issue of charging a “Pew Fee”. The Methodist church followed the old English custom of charging an annual fee for a seat in a pew. The closer to the front of the church, the higher the fee charged. That was one of the ways they supported their churches.

The Free Methodists did not believe that anyone should ever pay to be in a church. They prohibited any fee being charged to sit anywhere in their churches.

Over time, the Free Methodists became more and more “fundamentalist” and strict in their observances, behavior and attire. In Oregon, where I grew up, they could not wear any bright colors, no shorts or slacks for women, no jewelry of any type, no dancing, no card playing, etc., etc., etc. They drove only black cars, and they lived very simple lives. In their lives, they were akin to the strict Mennonites (NOT like the Amish however).

I never heard a word spoken in that church about Christ loving us. Instead it was 100% hellfire and damnation, how the wicked would be punished, how we had to constantly fear the Lord and how we constantly offended him, for which we would be punished.

There was no joy, no love, nothing but fear, fear, fear. My grandfather was the minister of the church, and he also preached at “Camp Meetings” during the summer.

I was taught in Sunday School; at his church that nuns were literally the “Brides of the Devil”, and that they wore habits to hide their horns. I was taught that priests impregnated nuns, and that they sacrificed the babies at “Black Masses”. I was taught that the Pope was the “Devil Incarnate” on earth, and that Catholics were all attempting to bring people to the devil so they could be roasted in hell forever.

We had people come to his church, claiming to be former priests and nuns, who told stories about the constant orgies, the sacrifice of the babies at the alter, and other outlandish stories. Sadly, we, as well as most of the congregation, believed those stories.

My mother had no religion, totally rejecting the teachings of the church she was raised in. But, we all spent summers with her parents, and we were typical of young children, believing what we were taught. We adored our grandfather, and we accepted what we were taught.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lincecumism is exploring ecumenical possibilities with Cainism, Huffites, Sandovaloxy, and Poseyism. I’m excited at the intercommunion prospects!

So is ecumenical Tim Lincecumism called Ecumenicalincecumism?

Sorry. We now return to the serious discussions of the thread.

 

[JonNC]

Lincecumism is exploring ecumenical possibilities with Cainism, Huffites, Sandovaloxy, and Poseyism. I’m excited at the intercommunion prospects!

Of course, you know that the real center of Baseballeranism is Citizen’s Bank Park.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

When I wake up in the morning, my prayers are directed northwest to the Mecca of Giantism—AT&T Park, Lincecum and Posey being the twin Ka’abah’s of Giantism! We throw stones at the Tommy LaSorda shrine as a symbol of our rejection of Shaitan. The indulgence? $9 beer LOL

Of course, you know that the real center of Baseballeranism is Citizen’s Bank Park.

Jon

 

[Jim_Dandy]

1. Lutherans believe that our Church, as part of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church
   has its start at Pentecost. We therefore do not view our history as 500 years old, but 2,000, sharing 1,500 years of common history with Church Catholic. And we hope and pray for the day when unity again returns.

Jon

The LCMS website identified 250 denominations of Lutherans when last I checked. In your view, are all 250 conflicting and competing Lutheran groups part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that had its start at Pentecost? Was the Church founded by Christ splintered and not One from her beginning? Are all of them 2,000 years old? The WELS and the LCMS don’t admit each other to communion. There may be others. I’m certainly no expert on Lutheran splits. I hope and pray for the day when unity again returns among the Lutherans!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Orthodox deny Catholics communion as well. They are 2,000 years old, founded by Christ, apostolic, valid orders, 7 sacraments, Eucharistic, etc. Same problem.

The LCMS website identified 250 denominations of Lutherans when last I checked. In your view, are all 250 conflicting and competing Lutheran groups part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that had its start at Pentecost? Was the Church founded by Christ splintered and not One from her beginning? Are all of them 2,000 years old? The WELS and the LCMS don’t admit each other to communion. There may be others. I’m certainly no expert on Lutheran splits. I hope and pray for the day when unity again returns among the Lutherans!

 

[Australis]

I’ll let the church speak for itself:

presbyterian.org.au

 "The Presbyterian Church of Australia is a part of the Christian Church throughout the world. The Church’s name comes from the Greek word presbuteros, which is the word for an elder or a mature Christian leader in the New Testament. The use of the name Presbyterian reflects the Church’s aim to be faithful to the Bible’s teaching on the Church, even in the 21st Century. In its wider use, the name Presbyterian has also come to include the distinctive doctrine, discipline, worship, laws and practice of the churches which returned to Biblical standards in Europe at the time known as the Reformation. "

 

[Bluegoat]

I agree, the evangelicals I know will tell you you don’t have the holy spirit if you are not jumping up and down,clapping your hands and screaming during service. They equate the degree of spirituality with how emotional you are in worship. It’s nonsense
We evangalize best with our actions, with the way we live.

This is true, but the story of the man who has never had a Catholic share his faith with him is true too, and it isn’t an uncommon story.

Look at how many people who are atheists, often raised that way, who come to Catholicism via a Protestant evangelical group. I don’t think it is only because these people are somehow spiritually immature, it is also because Catholics need to find an authentic Catholic way of sharing Catholicism with people.

 

[greggy53]

This is true, but the story of the man who has never had a Catholic share his faith with him is true too, and it isn’t an uncommon story.

Look at how many people who are atheists, often raised that way, who come to Catholicism via a Protestant evangelical group. I don’t think it is only because these people are somehow spiritually immature, it is also because Catholics need to find an authentic Catholic way of sharing Catholicism with people.

I never had an Anglican, or Methodist or any number of other denominations share their faith with me either. There are many spiritually immature and non-practicing Catholics but I don’t think the Catholic Church needs to find an original or authentic anything. We are the original article, the real deal. Our spirituality I believe is the purest form of Christianity on this earth. All other Christian faiths have come out from us.

 

[JonNC]

=Jim Dandy;6855939]The LCMS website identified 250 denominations of Lutherans when last I checked. In your view, are all 250 conflicting and competing Lutheran groups part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that had its start at Pentecost?
Was the Church founded by Christ splintered and not One from her beginning? Are all of them 2,000 years old? The WELS and the LCMS don’t admit each other to communion. There may be others. I’m certainly no expert on Lutheran splits.

Hi Jim,
The 250 synods are not necessarily “conflicting and competing.” Many are national churches, or outgrowths from national churches, as is the case in America. The fact that we do not have a hierarchy such as that with the Catholic Church is true. Neither does Orthodoxy.
Now none of that denies that there are differences between some of us, as you mentioned as between WELS and the LCMS. In this instance, the main difference revolves around fellowship, and to a lesser degree the role of women in the Church. And without full doctrinal agreement, both synods hold to a position similar to that of the Catholic Church regarding the admittance to receiving communion.

LCMS also identifies as problems in some synods regarding what we believe is variances from the Confessions and scripture, such as the ELCA’s ordaining of women, and now practicing homosexuals. Would you recommend that we have full altar and pulpit fellowship under those circumstances?
I would suggest that the CC has a similar division regarding some Old Catholics who ordain women and deny papal infallibility.

Clearly, Christ meant that we all be one. Sadly, this hasn’t been the case for at least half of the life of the Church Militant, though it has always been true of the Church Triumphant. To the extent and degree that the word is proclaimed and the sacraments adminitered, yes, these Lutheran synods are part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, which is, as the result of sin, wounded by division.

I hope and pray for the day when unity again returns among the Lutherans!

And all of us as Christians.

Jon

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Of course, you know that the real center of Baseballeranism is Citizen’s Bank Park.

Jon

Really? I thought the Holy See was located at Edison International Field.

 

[guanophore]

Actually I think it was pretty well splintered by 1054.

No, not a bit. the Schism between East and West bore little resemblance to the Reformatiuon. No new doctrine was created by either side.

 

[scottm]

There was not a large divide in theology though, the Orthodox Church separated because they disagreed with the authority of the Pope but kept much of their practice. After the Protestant Reformation there was a lot of stray from Church teaching and misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

That’s not quite accurate. The West split from the East because the West insisted on taking new authority way beyond what it had for the first several centuries.

The Christian church was originally “Eastern Orthodox” in that

1. it started in Jerusalem (East)
2. the word “Christian” was coined in what is now Syria (East)
3. the Apostle Paul’s journeys were all over Eastern lands – Greece, Syria, Turkey, and such. Look on a map.
4. The Apostles journeys not recorded in the Bible but preserved elsewhere show them to be traveling all over the Middle East and Africa and Turkey and such. Rome is the only Western place they go. The Eastern Orthodox lands are filled with churches started by Apostles, or immediate disciples of Apostles. In contrast the Western Church can claim one and only one city: Rome. That’s the only Western city evangelized by an Apostle, when the East has too many to count.
5. There are five ancient sees. Four of them are Eastern: Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, and Jerusalem. The fifth and only the fifth see is Western: Rome.

Regarding the split of 1054, the Eastern Orthodox Church has always accepted and taught that the See of Peter, Rome, has primacy. That is still today the teaching. The East/West dispute is over what phrase means. The Eastern Orthodox maintains still today, and always has maintained, the original meaning of the phrase. The Roman See changed the meaning unilaterally, and split from the other four ancient Sees when they would not change.

Easy check: Which ecumenical council held before 1054 ratified the wording of the Nicene Creed recited today in Roman churches? The answer is “none of them.” But the wording of the Creed recited in Orthodox churches is the one ratified by the councils in the 300’s and 400’s. Ergo, Rome changed. The Eastern Orthodox churches did not.