What is the more important attribute of the tax collector in Luke 18: 9-14

[1Lord1Faith]

What is more important? Is it the tax collector’s interior disposition of humility and his realization of his dependence on God’s mercy? Or is it his outward action of humbly expressing this in prayer at the Temple?

To put it another way for clarification,

Is the tax collector’s humiliation at the Temple a necessary part of being “the one who humbles himself”? Is the action necessary? Or is the interior disposition of humility enough?

Jesus addressed this parable
to those who were convinced of their own righteousness
and despised everyone else.
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray;
one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself,
‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity –
greedy, dishonest, adulterous – or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
But the tax collector stood off at a distance
and would not even raise his eyes to heaven
but beat his breast and prayed,
‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’
I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
for whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[po18guy]

Interior disposition should produce exterior exhibition.

i.e. Luke 3:8

Bear fruits in keeping with repentance . And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Fruits. Tangible evidence. Not a self-aggrandizing charade, but evidence of internal conversion.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Excerpt from Great Vespers for the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee:

1. Strong is the love of the Lord for us; eternally will His truth endure.*

A Pharisee, overcome with vainglory, and a Publican, bowed down in repentance,
came to You the only Master.
The one boasted and was deprived of blessings,
while the other kept silent and was counted worthy of gifts.
Confirm me, O Christ our God,
in these his cries of sorrow,
for You love mankind.

In Tone 8, Glory…

Almighty Lord, I know how great is the power of tears.
For they led up Hezekiah from the gates of death;
they delivered the sinful woman from the transgressions of many years;
they justified the Publican above the Pharisee.
And with them I also pray:
Have mercy upon me.

Source: Royal Doors dot net

 

[De_Maria]

What is more important? Is it the tax collector’s interior disposition of humility and his realization of his dependence on God’s mercy? Or is it his outward action of humbly expressing this in prayer at the Temple?

Compare to this:

Matthew 6:2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites[a] do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, 4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

To put it another way for clarification,

Is the tax collector’s humiliation at the Temple a necessary part of being “the one who humbles himself”? Is the action necessary? Or is the interior disposition of humility enough?

Sincerity and righteousness are the key. God alone knows that the tax collector was sincere and was not bent down and beating his chest merely for show. The Pharisee in that parable was “praying to himself”. No one else heard his prayer. But God knew that it was not from righteousness that he did the things he did, but because he despised others and loved himself too much.

I hope that helps.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Sincerity and righteousness are the key.

Are you saying that the tax collector didn’t need to go to the Temple, and that there was no need to do the following things: “stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast…” Was this act of humiliation at the Temple not necessary?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Interior disposition should produce exterior exhibition .

Can exterior exhibition produce a humble interior disposition?

 

[De_Maria]

What is more important? Is it the tax collector’s interior disposition of humility and his realization of his dependence on God’s mercy? Or is it his outward action of humbly expressing this in prayer at the Temple?

Compare to this:

Matthew 6:2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites[a] do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, 4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

To put it another way for clarification,

Is the tax collector’s humiliation at the Temple a necessary part of being “the one who humbles himself”? Is the action necessary? Or is the interior disposition of humility enough?

Sincerity and righteousness are the key. God alone knows that the tax collector was sincere and was not bent down and beating his chest merely for show. The Pharisee in that parable was “praying to himself”. No one else heard his prayer. But God knew that it was not from righteousness that he did the things he did, but because he despised others and loved himself too much.

Are you saying that the tax collector didn’t need to go to the Temple, and that there was no need to do the following things: “stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast…” Was this act of humiliation at the Temple not necessary?

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

 

[po18guy]

Humility is a grace which emanates from within.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

These are actions and exercises of the will, not interior dispositions.

Humility is a grace which emanates from within

But the gospel says, “the one who humbles himself…” That doesn’t necessarily sound like a grace so much as the use of the will.

Another thing that stands out in this gospel is how the Pharisee’s action in the Temple is described simply as he “took up his position”. Not sure exactly what that means, but the gospel goes on to describe the Pharisee’s interior disposition in detail.

Conversely, the tax collector’s action in the Temple is described in detail, but his interior disposition is described simply by his prayer, “O God, be merciful to me a sinner.“

The gospel also specifically mentions that the Pharisee’s prayer is silent. But doesn’t say whether or not the tax collector’s prayer is silent. Which may mean that the prayer was said aloud. Which would be in keeping with the other outward expressions of humiliation that he showed in the Temple.

So it seems to me that the outward expression of humility is in fact being emphasized. And may even be the more important element.

 

[De_Maria]

These are actions and exercises of the will, not interior dispositions.

You need interior dispositions to carry out these actions of the will.

But the gospel says, “the one who humbles himself…” That doesn’t necessarily sound like a grace so much as the use of the will.

Is that a problem?

Another thing that stands out in this gospel is how the Pharisee’s action in the Temple is described simply as he “took up his position”. Not sure exactly what that means,

A Pharisee is a religious person. Therefore, he had a specified place where he stood as opposed to a regular person who had no assigned place.

but the gospel goes on to describe the Pharisee’s interior disposition in detail.

Who, besides God, would know that interior disposition?

Conversely, the tax collector’s action in the Temple is described in detail, but his interior disposition is described simply by his prayer, “O God, be merciful to me a sinner.“

So, his interior disposition matched his exterior behaviour.

The gospel also specifically mentions that the Pharisee’s prayer is silent. But doesn’t say whether or not the tax collector’s prayer is silent. Which may mean that the prayer was said aloud. Which would be in keeping with the other outward expressions of humiliation that he showed in the Temple.

Ok.

So it seems to me that the outward expression of humility is in fact being emphasized.

It is.

And may even be the more important element.

Wrong. Jesus Christ is contrasting two extremes here, in order to make the point that self love and pride are detestable sins in God’s eyes. While the humble are beloved of God.

If you look more closely, the Pharisee is in the very front of the temple, where all can see him. Whereas, the tax collector is in the very back where people would have to turn around to see him.

13 And the publican, standing afar off,

You seem to imply that the tax collector was making a show of himself, but you are reading that into the verse.

 

[po18guy]

All good comes from God, including humility. So, we can argue that, or we cannot. I choose not to.

 

[adgloriam]

“stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast…”

He didn’t deem himself worthy.

In this case, it’s not “humiliation” but “humility”.

Humility is about value (St.Thomas Aquinas). So, humility is not exaggerating nor downplaying your value. Humility is having the exact notion, and measure, of your value.

So, in this passage the main lesson is the incommensurate disproportion between us and God. And that we never fall into vanity, superiority, when we do something good (because that too, can be linked to us collaborating with God’s grace.)

But the definite explanation of the passage you quote -for me- is given in another parable, that completes it:

Attitude of a Servant.

Lk 17:10. So should it be with you. When you have done all you have been commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants; we have done what we were obliged to do.’”

 

[adgloriam]

“the one who humbles himself …”

You may wish to notice a subtlety here that English language doesn’t emphasize:

Humbles
Humiliation

A person humbling himself (being humbled by others or circumstances) , is making himself humble.

Humiliation is someone/something taking your value (hitting you in your self-worth, even in your dignity).

So the semantics are different, the first enforces virtue, the second is synonymous with violence and injustice. Humility, humbling yourself, is recognizing that you do have dignity, that you are a person, and that dignity is not to be taken away, by anyone. And taking away that dignity is what’s in general called humiliation, as a form of (symbolic) violence against someone’s dignity. (The catechism follows the subtle divisions).

 

[1Lord1Faith]

You seem to imply that the tax collector was making a show of himself, but you are reading that into the verse.

I wasn’t trying to imply that he was making a show of himself, like some kind of self aggrandizement. I was assuming that other people in the Temple would still be able to see him do all of those humbling things. In fact, the Pharisee knows that he is there. So, he wasn’t hiding either, it just says that he stood off at a distance.

You disagreed that the actions are the more important element in this parable, but you didn’t provide any reason. What followed your reply of “wrong” was just a summary of the parable. Why wouldn’t there be a parable in which the will, or the action, is emphasized as a step in the journey of one’s redemption? Even a first step, with God’s grace to follow.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

the second is synonymous with violence and injustice.

Not necessarily. But that’s really not important.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

So, in this passage the main lesson is the incommensurate disproportion between us and God.

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here.

And that we never fall into vanity, superiority, when we do something good

What good did the Pharisee do?

How was the tax collector at risk of being proud? His public act of humility in the Temple may have been the first good thing he’d done in his whole life, a first step to redemption. He went away justified. I assume that means with grace. The parable doesn’t broach any risks of pride after justification. That’s not the scope of the parable.

 

[adgloriam]

adgloriam:

And that we never fall into vanity, superiority, when we do something good

What good did the Pharisee do?

Objectively the point is besides the good the pharisee did, he had meritorious works.

But he judged his neighbor (1st), he failed to recognize he himself was a sinner(2nd), what good he did (devotional works, actually), was a fruit of conversion and thus cooperation with grace (this much he acknowledges, explicitly), which he can use to rejoice, but not to exalt himself over others(3rd).

Thus he is not humble interiorly, because he regards the gift of conversion as a motive for superiority instead of a privilege motivating humility, and compassion.

adgloriam:

So, in this passage the main lesson is the incommensurate disproportion between us and God.

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here.

Here, it’s generally said you should not assume yourself “fair or just” before God - which the Pharisee did. That’s what I was trying to say, the reasons I’ve given factor back to that, and the bottom line is whatever good you’ve done you’re nothing but a useless servant, God could have done that good Himself, without you, because He made you out of dust, out of love, despite not needing you.

adgloriam:

the second is synonymous with violence and injustice.

Not necessarily. But that’s really not important.

In the possible space of meanings the semantics of the word has; this is not strictly so, yet it’s one of the preponderant meanings!! And you’ll notice the careful distinction between humbling and humiliating is coherently used throughout these passages in the NAB bible. (So the difference is relevant, in this context.)

 

[adgloriam]

po18guy:

Interior disposition should produce exterior exhibition .

Can exterior exhibition produce a humble interior disposition?

Exterior ACTS can contribute towards creating/strengthening interior dispositions.

That is why in so many devotions, and throughout the liturgy, gestures of the body are coded and ritualized. You kneel with your heart, the exterior gesture reminds you, both interior (personal), and exterior (social), of what kneeling means.

stands out in this gospel is how the Pharisee’s action in the Temple is described simply as he “took up his position”. Not sure exactly what that means

 

[1Lord1Faith]

the pharisee did, he had meritorious works.

I’m not so sure the fasting and tithing that he mentions would be meritorious in the eyes of God. Didn’t St Paul say that works without love have no sanctifying value?

what good he did (devotional works, actually), was a fruit of conversion and thus cooperation with grace

I think you’re assuming this. There’s no indication that the Pharisee had any grace to cooperate with, or that he ever had a ‘conversion’. The only indication of a conversion in the parable is that of the tax collector’s conversion.

 

[adgloriam]

There’s no indication that the Pharisee had any grace to cooperate with, or that he ever had a ‘conversion’.

We’d have to define ‘conversion’ since the pharisee believed in God and tried to abjure sin. He could hardly have done that, coherently, (except if you consider it purely cultural), continuously, without successive conversion (otherwise you suppose he received no grace, that it was all of his effort, habit, and strength), in his case aided by mortification. You could argue that his justice was devoid of charity, however charity contains justice, nothing is to say he didn’t love God, and by not stealing nor lying practiced some justice towards neighbor out of love for God (don’t we all do things out of love/tremor for God, to obey the commandments?) The point being, you are not to consider yourself superior to neighbor, because the gifts are from God, not without some merit and effort on our part.

Didn’t St Paul say that works without love have no sanctifying value?

The Pharisees practices had sanctifying value, diligence opposed to sloth, and liberality opposed to greed. Although not resulting from love of neighbor, but from love for God. They did, however, not fulfill the beatitudes, nor were they of mercy. Hence lacking extremely in the essence of things (conversion of heart towards charity), his practices were however sanctifying.

Didn’t St Paul say that works without love have no sanctifying value?

Saint Paul is provocative to an extreme. Enough to say the law has some value, you’re analyzing chapter 18 according to Luke, if you look at chapter 16:

Sayings About the Law.

Lk 16:17. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the smallest part of a letter of the law to become invalid