What is the most ancient rite close to Jesus Time?

[phil19034]

I don’t think any of them are currently close to the original liturgy.

However, I do know that the Roman Rite (after Vatican II) really tried to restore the Roman Rite to be closer to the original.

But to the best of my knowledged, none of them match the original liturgies.

 

[TMC]

However, I do know that the Roman Rite (after Vatican II) really tried to restore the Roman Rite to be closer to the original.

I think it depends on what is meant by “original.” Based on both Paul’s (very limited) descriptions in his letters, and what we see in the Didache, the first and probably second generation of Christians had a pretty different view of the liturgy - and maybe for a while after that. I would think the current liturgy would line up better with practices from later, but I am not knowledgeable enough to say how much later - but certainly after the initial generations.

 

[AlbMagno]

Elvish

There you got the answer.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Italian is pretty easy to learn (at least to me). Many words have it’s root in latin, it is very melodic language.

Russian is also very easy but that’s because I am Slav.

Italian is very easy to pick up, if you already know French and Spanish, which I do (at least to some extent). If I take a step back, relax, and use my imagination a little, I can basically figure out simple Italian texts such as those on websites and newspaper articles. It is not a terribly complicated language. Portuguese is a little tougher, and Romanian, I can only figure out individual words.

I can “hack my way through” basic Russian, especially if verbs aren’t a major factor, in that I have a small amount of fluency in basic, conversational Polish. I do confess that I still have to run the Cyrillic alphabet through a kind of letter-by-letter mental filter — “I see Cyrillic, but I have to visualize it in Latin”.

I have no expertise in Asian or Semitic languages, though I do find it fascinating that Sanskrit has some primitive roots from which Slavic, Germanic, and Romance languages take portions of their vocabulary. Totally random observation, I found it interesting that the Konkani (former Portuguese Goa state of India) word for “thank you”, ievkar, superficially resembles the Greek root for thanksgiving — think “ievkar - Eucharist”, and you’ll see what I mean. It’s pronounced “yev-kar”.

 

[Inbonum]

I have no expertise in Asian or Semitic languages, though I do find it fascinating that Sanskrit has some primitive roots from which Slavic, Germanic, and Romance languages take portions of their vocabulary. Totally random observation, I found it interesting that the Konkani (former Portuguese Goa state of India) word for “thank you”, ievkar , superficially resembles the Greek root for thanksgiving — think “ievkar - Eucharist” , and you’ll see what I mean. It’s pronounced “yev-kar”.

I didn’t know it, that’s very interesting

 

[Bithynian]

Sanskrit has some primitive roots from which Slavic, Germanic, and Romance languages

Yes, all these languages are hypothesised to descend from a common ancestor, Proto-Indo-European (or PIE) which has been reconstructed based on comparative linguistics. However there are a number of languages indigenous to Europe that are ‘isolates’ and are otherwise unrelated to neighbouring languages and not descended from PIE. Examples include Greek and Basque.

 

[Maximian]

However, I do know that the Roman Rite (after Vatican II) really tried to restore the Roman Rite to be closer to the original.

Yes that’s perfectly true. This represents the “archeologist” approach, as opposed to the “organic” approach followed by traditionalists.

One danger of the archeologists’ approach is that it depends on research which may be defective or become out of date.

 

[twf]

I wouldn’t be surprised if elements go back to the Apostles, and certainly most of the texts are ancient… but from a scholarly perspective I think it’s pretty established that all of the liturgical rites have evolved over time.

 

[ReaderT]

I wouldn’t be surprised if elements go back to the Apostles, and certainly most of the texts are ancient… but from a scholarly perspective I think it’s pretty established that all of the liturgical rites have evolved over time.

It makes logical sense that certain “organic” changes would occur over time; I see what you’re saying.

 

[BartholomewB]

I found it interesting that the Konkani (former Portuguese Goa state of India) word for “thank you”, ievkar , superficially resembles the Greek root for thanksgiving — think “ievkar - Eucharist” , and you’ll see what I mean. It’s pronounced “yev-kar”.

Yes, I find that interesting, as well. I wonder whether it breaks down, as in Greek, into two words, yev, “good”, and kar, “grace”.

 

[BartholomewB]

However there are a number of languages indigenous to Europe that are ‘isolates’ and are otherwise unrelated to neighbouring languages and not descended from PIE. Examples include Greek and Basque.

In casual conversation, many years ago, with a Georgian woman, she mentioned a theory that Georgian is connected with one of those languages spoken in isolated pockets in western Europe. It was either Basque or Etruscan, but after all these years I don’t remember which.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Actually, Latin seems to have most “ancient” origin because other Rites changed quite a lot. Now what Latin Rite was historically proficient at was shortening everything. It even escalated into some bizzare situations in Roman Mass (before it was infused with some Gallican things and became Tridentine Mass) had “Oremus” (let us pray) followed by no prayer. Anyhow, Roman Rite in it’s purity before Middle Ages was probably closest and because it is still close enough to it’s original form I’d say that it’s pretty close.

Originally, Liturgy everywhere had almost no rules but it was somewhat organized upon similar lines (though far from uniform). Later on, every Priest started doing things as his Bishop did and Bishops started looking to important cities and adopting their practice. So Antioch, Alexandria and Rome had huge impact. What spread to other parts was probably original Antiochene Liturgy we know from Apostolic Constitutions. This Liturgy is very close to original Roman Rite I have described above.

However, Antiochene liturgy got later replaced when Bishops of Antioch adopted Rite of Jerusalem. This is where all Eastern Liturgies stem from. Over the time, Rite of Jerusalem spread also to France and there created so-called “Gallican Rite”. Also, Greek Byzantine Rite is pretty much something that mixed practice of Romans with Rite of Jerusalem.

When it comes to Alexandria, it was probably affected by Rite of Jerusalem in similar way and originally had liturgy close to Antioch. We know that there was “African Rite” which was very close to Roman Rite.

Almost entire Church followed principle of “One Patriarchate, One Rite”. Only exception was Rome. We know that Popes tolerated Gallican Rite and were okay with it spreading- but problem was that Gallican Rite was not uniform. It was some sort of collection of practices. Later on, they affected Roman Rite too and such “affected Roman Rite” became what is today known as Tridentine Rite.

Tridentine Rite (before it was Tridentine) eventually got forced upon Western Church because Secular Rulers wanted uniform Liturgy. However, Priests and Bishops still maintained some local variations. At Council of Trent, this changed and entire Latin Church adopted Tridentine Rite.

Let’s also rewind a bit and look back to East. During Quinisext Council, Byzantine Patriarch tried to force entire Church to conform to his practices. This was met with resounding “no”. However as Great Schism came, Ecumenical Patriarchate started forcing their Liturgy on entire Church and as such, principle of “One Patriarchate One Rite” was broken- because every Patriarchate had same Rite. In Russia, Liturgy developed somewhat independently but when Ecumenical Patriarch saw that, he forced them to adopt Byzantine customs. This escalated to Schism in Russia and those who kept their practices became known as “Old Believers”.

Syriac Rites are also Jerusalemite .We know that original Chaldean Rites had words of institution, we know that Maronites latinized themselves and there was also Alexandrian influence. They aren’t as ancient as one might think.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

There are more Rites such as Mozarambic (Gallican in origin) and some others I can’t recall now. Point is that most of them are somewhat mysterious- we just don’t know enough about them. They were probably not organized enough either way.

So from my perspective, Liturgy that is closest to Apostolic Constitutions in essence is Novus Ordo. Novus Ordo was crafted with Apostolic Constitutions in mind and it indeed is quite similar. However, Novus Ordo did not come through organic development. If we look at origin of Liturgies, only real differences between Tridentine Mass and Apostolic Constitutions are that Romans shortened the Liturgy a bit and that they added quite small amount of Gallican (Eastern in origin) elements. Eastern Liturgies stem from Jerusalemite Liturgy and were changed over time by local variations. Every Liturgy organically developed claims same lineage to Apostolic Liturgies- no doubt. But which Liturgy has organically changed the least? Probably Tridentine Mass.

Though really, the question itself is hard to answer. What I provided is answer to “what is closest to earliest recorded Liturgy?”. Liturgies in ancient era have developed organically and there were no clear rules other than “Apostle did this and I think this is good addition” or “my Bishop did this and taught me how to do this” etc. Basically people adapted Rite of whoever spread Christianity to them and then they changed it over time by either local variations or because they misremembered things. Very often, they just added stuff because it was convenient- Priest washing hands now has theological implications of cleansing himself from sin, but first Christians simply needed to wash their hands.

If you are interested in earliest Liturgies, know that this is complicated topic. All people wore vestments (celebrant had a bit distinct ones but in very slight manner), there were readings and people received Eucharist. Not much else we can tell. Try to read Justin Martyr and Apostolic Constitutions- they are great sources.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I have no expertise in Asian or Semitic languages, though I do find it fascinating that Sanskrit has some primitive roots from which Slavic, Germanic, and Romance languages take portions of their vocabulary. Totally random observation, I found it interesting that the Konkani (former Portuguese Goa state of India) word for “thank you”, ievkar , superficially resembles the Greek root for thanksgiving — think “ievkar - Eucharist” , and you’ll see what I mean. It’s pronounced “yev-kar”.

I didn’t know it, that’s very interesting

Knowledge of Konkani isn’t a lifestyle accessory of the vast majority of Americans, nor for that matter, anyone outside of Goa and its immediate vicinity. A friend of mine spoke it as his first language, that’s how I picked this up.

Yes, I find that interesting, as well. I wonder whether it breaks down, as in Greek, into two words, yev , “good”, and kar , “grace”.

According to an online Konkani dictionary, it does not mean “good gift”. “Good” is “boro” and “gift” is “ayerr” in Konkani.

The dictionary also lists “bakshis” as another word for “gift”, which corresponds to that thing that could be variously thought of as a tip, a present, or a bribe in many cultures — “a little something to make sure that my task gets done, or to show my appreciation for the task that was done for me”. Back in the day, in immediately post-socialist Poland, a little “token of appreciation” (such as a small-denomination US banknote) was a way to get a bureaucrat to move your paperwork to the top of the stack. There is a gray area in some cultures between doing something immoral, and doing something that is just the way things are done there. The Polish word is pronounced exactly the same way as the word in Konkani.

 

[BartholomewB]

The dictionary also lists “bakshis” as another word for “gift”,

It entered English as a borrowing from Persian, it says here:

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

The dictionary also lists “bakshis” as another word for “gift”,

It entered English as a borrowing from Persian, it says here:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Lexico Dictionaries | English

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Baksheesh | Definition of Baksheesh by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also…​

What is the definition of baksheesh? What is the meaning of baksheesh? How do you use baksheesh in a sentence? What are synonyms for baksheesh?

I know. I didn’t mean to imply that it was a native Konkani word. Both the word and the concept are well-known throughout much of Eurasia and possibly beyond.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Yes that’s perfectly true. This represents the “archeologist” approach, as opposed to the “organic” approach followed by traditionalists.

So from my perspective, Liturgy that is closest to Apostolic Constitutions in essence is Novus Ordo.

so is it true that the earliest liturgies were versus populum like the ordinary form?

 

[Alexandria2020]

Knowledge of Konkani isn’t a lifestyle accessory of the vast majority of Americans, nor for that matter, anyone outside of Goa and its immediate vicinity. A friend of mine spoke it as his first language, that’s how I picked this up.

there’s a community in India called " Mangalorean Catholics"- they are Latin Rite Catholics from India who speak Konkani. Most of them were converted by Portuguese missionaries in the 15th/16th centuries. And many have those Portuguese sounding last names such as D’Souza and Fernandes.

I’m pretty sure Indian-American Dinesh D’Souza is from this community.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

so is it true that the earliest liturgies were versus populum like the ordinary form?

No, not at all but neither is Ordinary Form… not in the normative Missal at least.

To correct myself, I think Ordinary Form in it’s pure form is very close to earliest Liturgies. So that still means Ad Orientem and things for which Ordinary Form was written- not necessarily all things that are permitted (and not necessarily what became popular).

 

[Alexandria2020]

To correct myself, I think Ordinary Form in it’s pure form is very close to earliest Liturgies.

would that be something like Fr Heilman’s OF Mass at St Mary’s Pine Bluff?