What is the most ancient rite close to Jesus Time?

[OriginalGabrielof12]

What are the origins for the names of Andrew and Philip? Greek are they not?

I have an ancient Hebrew first name and yet I have no Hebrew blood line, except by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
I am not debating that Jewish Greeks or maybe Greeks curiosity and honoring the temple in Jerusalem at Passover brought them their. Or there may have been some Greeks living with in first century Palestine. I am simply stating Greek was not the dominate speaking language during Jesus fleshly tenure on earth. Greek was one of the three Languages Pontius Pilate listed on his message to all the world. Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs —we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

Quite a few Greek speaking Jews.

Come on Julius Caesar. You know very well the apostles spoke in tongues at Pentecost for all in attendance heard Jesus gospel message through them. Your not going to convince that the miracle did not happen because all the apostles new all these different languages from far away places. Your post does not support your position.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Those Jews I mentioned weren’t native to Judaea. They wouldn’t have known a lot of Aramaic.

So it’s a stretch to say that the first Christians were only Palestinian Jews.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I am simply stating Greek was not the dominate speaking language during Jesus fleshly tenure on earth.

When historians will tell you Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean.

Andrew and Philip are two examples of a Hellenized Levant.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Julius, those Jews you mentioned were visiting Jews who visited the temple once a year. The Jews you mentioned did not reside in Jerusalem. The book of Acts clearly declares where they came from. These visiting Jews took with them the Oral teachings of the Apostles, later an Apostle would visit them and baptize their whole households as recorded in the book of Acts.
I did not say the first Christians were only Palestinian Jews. Some Samaritans and Romans became Christians
The first century Mass in Jerusalem was conducted orally by the Apostles in their native languages, until Pentecost they were sent out. It is not until the Apostles are sent out, we will find the Greek speaking Greeks having Mass, especially after they received their first Episcopate. Do you know the century and name of the Apostle who brought the Greeks the Liturgy of Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist to them? I am sure each Greek province claims an apostolic Patriarch, who brought the good news to them.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Julius, those Jews you mentioned were visiting Jews who visited the temple once a year. The Jews you mentioned did not reside in Jerusalem.

The book of Acts indicates most of them did.

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common.

Acts 2:41‭-‬44 NIV

There was trouble among the community due to ethnic disputes.

In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
Acts 6:1 NIV

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Consider the timeline here. By the time this letter is written, The Way is well under way, Bishops and deacons are already being ordained and sent. Before any disputes, The Way was already celebrating the Mass in Jerusalem in the Oral tradition in the language of the Apostles that the new unlearned Jews could understand. By the time we get to the Hellenistic Jewish communities, the Apostolic Letters are already in circulation.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

There were Hellenized Jews long before the disputes.

Stephen was one of them.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

When you say Hellenized Jews, that’s kinda vague to me, because a Hellenized Jew in the first century only means that the Greek Culture took root among these Jews since Cyrus their Greek messiah delivered them from the Babylonian captivity. Although these Jews took on Greek names and culture. The Jews remained faithful to their Hebrew religious roots. I think this is where you may be finding your dichotomy. The Hellenistic Jews did not go the way of the Greek Language of religion when it came to reading the Tora. The Hellenized Jews remained true to the Hebrew scriptures in Liturgy, Same as Jesus Christ did when he read from the Prophets. Jesus did not read the Greek Septuagint, although the Septuagint was in circulation at the time.

 

[Bithynian]

The Hellenistic Jews did not go the way of the Greek Language of religion when it came to reading the Tora. The Hellenized Jews remained true to the Hebrew scriptures in Liturgy

Willem Smelik, Professor of Hebrew and Aramaic Literature at University College London, in the Oxford Handbook of Jewish Daily life in Roman Palestine notes the following:

Traditionally, the Septuagint had been treated with the same respect accorded to the Hebrew Scriptures, claiming divine inspiration for its very wording, and the high standing of Greek translations among the rabbis (M. Meg. 1.8) signals its traditional importance.

Again, I would recommend anyone with a query about the languages of 1st century Roman Palestine to read Prof Smelik’s chapter as he summarises well the findings and consensus (whatever little there might be) of scholarship.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Thank you, I introduced the Septuagint in my previous post. Although the Septuagint was in circulation and in high regard. The (Greek translation) Septuagint was probably used in most learning centers, thus the Greek was the academia language at the time. The Jewish liturgies of worship when the Tora was read in Hebrew is significant here, because this form of Jewish worship followed their ancient Tradition.Your source never denies the high respect Jews paid to the Hebrew scriptures.
I had debates about the importance of the Septuagint during the first century. Some of my opponents rejected the Septuagint and one was Jewish. I guess there is no one answer to any question?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

the Greek was the academia language at the time.

Also the language of the courts, used in commerce and trade, etc.

 

[CathBoy1]

Happy cake day!

 

[Bithynian]

I guess there is no one answer to any question?

Well the point that Prof Smelik makes is that there’s a lot of if’s, but’s and maybe’s when it comes to the status and use of languages in the 1st century AD Levant. There’s been a lot of absolutist claims made in this thread, ‘X language was used in Y context’, with no accommodation made for the fact that there was quite a lot of diversity. Again, Prof Smelik notes that:

Palestinian rabbis were well aware of the co-existence of different native tongues in Roman Palestine.

For example, the claim that Jewish liturgy was in Hebrew does not account for Talmudic precedents that allowed the use of Greek for writing a Torah scroll. There were also developments in late Second Temple liturgy (e.g. Hebrew prompting, vernacular responses) that reflected decreasing literacy in Hebrew. Some rabbis even permitted the recitation of the Shema in Greek. There is also the claim that Greek was an academic language amongst Jewish scholars, but original compositions of Jewish literature remained predominantly Hebrew and Aramaic until the 5th century AD.

Likewise the claim that Greek was the language of the courts and commerce cannot be made absolutely because there is extensive documentation of the co-existence of multiple forensic and commercial languages, such as the Babatha archive with Nabataean and Aramaic documents alongside Greek. In addition, the Qumran scrolls suggest that Hebrew was still used forensically amongst some Jewish communities.

Edit: Again, I would encourage others, if they are wanting a nuanced assessment, to read the aforementioned chapter by Prof Smelik in the Oxford Handbook. Oxford University Press publishes handbooks across most disciplines, and their chapters are authored by arguably the most important scholars, and they are intended to present an impartial analysis of the most recent research findings.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Likewise the claim that Greek was the language of the courts and commerce cannot be made absolutely

So Pilate was speaking Aramaic to Jesus and the priests.

 

[Bithynian]

So Pilate was speaking Aramaic to Jesus and the priests.

Apologies to @Julius_Caesar for my comment. It was not courteous.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Julius_Caesar:

So Pilate was speaking Aramaic to Jesus and the priests.

I’m not sure of your difficulty in understanding the qualifier ‘cannot be made absolutely’.

I’m not sure of your propensity to shadow debate.

 

[Bithynian]

There is a way to engage in debate that is fraternal without resorting to incessantly snarky comments that misrepresents the statements of others. This is not the first thread in which I’ve witnessed you demonstrating this behaviour to me and other users.

Given that you’re a fairly new user, I would encourage you to demonstrate some more thoughtfulness when engaging with others. Out of courtesy, I’ll edit my previous post.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

This is not the first thread in which I’ve witnessed you demonstrating this behaviour to me and other users.

I have a reputation. Good to know.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

There is also the claim that Greek was an academic language amongst Jewish scholars, but original compositions of Jewish literature remained predominantly Hebrew and Aramaic until the 5th century AD.

I find from your post there is much to be said about your source and the short introduction you mention here about your sources historical findings. I make no issue with your source because it supports my position that Greek was not the dominate language in first century Palestine.
One thing that you did not mention about your source apart from historical literature research. Remains the hidden factor which most historical investigators negate or forget and that is the Oral and Practiced Sacred Traditions both Jewish and early Christianity. Maybe your source comments on these religious Traditional practices or not? Sacred Oral Religious Traditions generally get missed because they can contradict or conflict with their research because these are living organisms with in Religious practices that only get hinted at in writings. Thus your source finds a lot of but’s, if’s and maybe’s.
For example; The substance of the Catholic Mass from first century remains untouched and practiced today, but it is not written from antiquity in a way that your source can definitely define it today. You have to look to the Oral Sacred Practiced unchanged Tradition that lives on in the same Apostolic faith. In short FAITH in any ancient Catholic Rite all reach back to Jesus Time. Yet your source according to his license cannot penetrate faith, your source has to paint within the boundaries of what can be seen and touched, when Faith has all of the above and more.
Peace be with you