What is the only feasible way out of the current crisis?

[ProVobis]

This is one of the more…interesting assertions I’ve heard made, though every assertion you make, ProVobis, gives me greater hope for that which you inveigh against.

Inveigh against? Haha. I’m like you. When I go to the NO I go because I don’t need to do any work, just open my mouth a little here and there and feel chummy with the people around me. I have so much fun it’s hard to believe it’s even a Mass. I hope they won’t take the English OF but seeing that the numbers are dwindling in the city, I might have to learn some Spanish pretty soon.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Inveigh against? Haha. I’m like you. When I go to the NO I go because I don’t need to do any work, just open my mouth a little here and there and feel chummy with the people around me. I have so much fun it’s hard to believe it’s even a Mass. I hope they won’t take the English OF but seeing that the numbers are dwindling in the city, I might have to learn some Spanish pretty soon.

Really? When I attend the OF, I try to prayerfully be present to what is happening before me: the presentation again in time of the Eternal and Holy Sacrifice. I’m sorry you feel differently.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I say it’s to begin phasing out the OF. Train the seminarians to pray the EF. Have them pray it exclusively after their ordination.

What of the EMHC, the lay lectors, the altar girls, etc. ? Promote the traditional roles. Choir, Third Orders, etc.

It’s crazy as is. As long as there are 2 forms of the Mass, there will be division, no matter how much we pretend there isn’t. At our local parish that offers both forms, it’s blatantly obvious. I’m sure there are exceptions, but those leaving the OF Mass tend to ignore those arriving for the EF that follows. Not just me, I’ve seen folks in front of me greeting those leaving the OF, and time and time again, they are ignored, get cold looks, or those leaving the OF just look the other way. Sad.

The EF will put everyone on the same page. I’ve thought long about this. I can’t think of any other way.

Thoughts ?

whatever happened to the word repentance and return to the God?
now and days it is almost if people in the Church are afraid to say it. it has simply being forgotten.

 

[PJM]

=SGT ROCK 33;6596873]I understand… And I know what you are saying.

In true charity, it is my opinion that some of the Catechism contradicts what has been taught in the past. However, I don’t believe that this thread is debating that particular issue. There is another thread available to debate this issue and I wouldn’t want to take away from the original post.

To truly answer your post, I don’t believe that the current Catechism is even being taught in full… There are threads all over on here that will back up my statement…sad.

God Bless

Friend, I respectfully suggest your wrong.There are issues in the Catecheism that have a BROADER understanding than in the past: salvation only through the CC for example; where the Dogma has NOT changed, but he understanding of a LIVING Church has.

I know of no changes is Doctrine or Dogma; if you do please be specific.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Orleans_Attny]

It is an honest poll. Simple yes or no, or not informed enough. I put it there to shield it from the trad bias and in hopes of no argument, but the first post took care of that.

I’m off to work. It will be interesting to see the results hours from now if someone doesn’t start an argument and get the thread closed. I’m sure they will try lol.

Besides, the determination of which from is better is not the intent. The intent is to simply find out if there are those who would attend one if available. And roughly what percentage of those who read the poll.

Who knows, you be proven right, that there is not as much interest as I’d like to see. It may very well prove to support your contention.

At Trent,

I think that the poll is a good idea. But we must all realize there will be a large number of people who say, “Sure. I’d attend - just to see what it’s like.”

For example, I’m an American expatriate living in Japan, and I don’t speak Japanese. But, I plan on attending a Japanese mass before I leave. And when I move to Geneva next year, I’ll probably attend a French mass as well as the TLM.

Why? Because I want to see what it’s like.

Pax,
OA

 

[At_Trent]

At Trent,

I think that the poll is a good idea. But we must all realize there will be a large number of people who say, “Sure. I’d attend - just to see what it’s like.”

For example, I’m an American expatriate living in Japan, and I don’t speak Japanese. But, I plan on attending a Japanese mass before I leave. And when I move to Geneva next year, I’ll probably attend a French mass as well as the TLM.

Why? Because I want to see what it’s like.

Pax,
OA

Sure there are those who are just curious, but even so, they want to go and their answer is still yes. Just like yourself.

Going a different direction here,
The Mass in Japanese, you will be able to follow along and know what’s happening on the altar won’t you ? You know the Mass by osmosis. Same way with the EF, go enough times and learn the rubrics. The Latin soon becomes a non issue. The peoples responses and rubrics are few in number and can be learned quickly. And the day’s proper’s are there in the missal in English. One can read and pray along as fast as the priest can pray the Latin, especially if he is chanting.

Just a suggestion. If I were in Switzerland, I’d try to get to Econe on a Sunday, and attend the SSPX Mass. Then go to another EF wherever it can be found, and I’d bet you’d see not much difference if any, even in the sermons

 

[At_Trent]

whatever happened to the word repentance and return to the God?
now and days it is almost if people in the Church are afraid to say it. it has simply being forgotten.

"A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken him?”
Pope Pius XII

Spooky isn’t it ?

“The day the Church abandons her universal tongue is the day before she returns to the catacombs.”
Pope Pius XII

All we have to do is read the news. The non-Catholic world wants Rome to fall. They want us in catacombs.

Prayer to St. Michael

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.

 

[SGT_ROCK_33]

Friend, I respectfully suggest your wrong.There are issues in the Catecheism that have a BROADER understanding than in the past: salvation only through the CC for example; where the Dogma has NOT changed, but he understanding of a LIVING Church has.

I know of no changes is Doctrine or Dogma; if you do please be specific.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Of course, I respectfully disagree…

Please explain the “LIVING Church”… I look forward to your reply and explanation.

God Bless

 

[boatbearer]

It still won’t happen. Those waiting for the OF to disappear are simply spinning their wheels in bitterness and anger.

Agreed!

They are also helping to ensure the Tridentine is a form of the Mass that will be celebrated in relatively minuscule numbers. More unintended consequences.

 

[boatbearer]

Not true. As I said earlier, it will die out on its own, long after you, Kirk, are gone. Or, if you are young enough, you may live to witness its disappearance. Then people will be traveling all over, hundreds of miles every Sunday, just to find an OF Mass. Just like the traditionals do now.

Both forms will co-exist. They might even be joined by others. However if anything would die out it would seem like it will be the Tridentine Mass :yup:

 

[Layman]

Traditionalists are not waiting for the O.F. to die out, 'though they expect it could happen. They are waiting for Bishops opposed to the TLM to die out.

Depends also on what O.F. you mean:

The 1969 Missal with Latin and chant, said ad-orientem;
The 1970 - 2010 version with none of the above but with added novelties and antiquities;
The 2011(?) version with corrections.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Spooky isn’t it ?

All we have to do is read the news. The non-Catholic world wants Rome to fall. They want us in catacombs.

Prayer to St. Michael

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.

and if one notice, these things are never mention in Mass or by any teacher of the Faith.
as if it is an ambarassament to them to speak of these Truths spoken by our ancesters.
it doesnt take much for one to see the lack of wisdom in the priests and bishops. the holy bishops and priest are pretty much silent and we dont hear from much.

i dont know if anybody notice but to me, the liberals are in full force teaching their falsehoods and i think it is because of the Traditional making a comeback.

 

[Onegin]

There have to be stable communites that want and support it. Surely in reason you see that?

But your argument makes no sense. Initially you asserted that, if there is interest in the TLM, a parishoner need only to ask and it will be supplied. Now you are saying that, in order to ask, there need first to be a “stable community.” If people don’t know about the TLM in the first place (which, I hope we can agree that many don’t), then they will never have the opportunity to be exposed to it unless these “stable communities” start appearing out of the ether to request TLMs.

Surely the absurdity of this requirement is why the Holy Father later clarified that there need be no specific number of people for the Priest to accede to a request for the TLM. And yet, as I said in my previous post, there is hostility.

Let me give you two first-hand accounts of my attempts to request a TLM. Both occurred some time after Summorum Pontificum. The first was at a Catholic University that I won’t name out of charity. It is enough to say that it is highly regarded as “orthodox” within the Catholic world. A large group of students, interested in access to the TLM, compiled a petition to request (in accordance with Summorum Pontificum) for a TLM to be said on campus. The petition received a few hundred signatures. The request was denied twice. After I graduated, I was informed that, after some further argument over the matter, the school had decided to provide a shuttle so that students could attend the TLM in the local city.

The second occurred at a much larger Catholic school with similar results (petition denied with several hundred signatures). Both schools offered several Masses on Sunday both in the morning and the afternoon.

The point of all of this is that - for those of us who have actually followed Summorum Pontificum’s advice - the actual mechanics of it are by no means simple. Hostility in the parish, the diocese or what have you can mean that hundreds of interested Catholics may be left without a TLM. It has nothing to do with “stable communties” and everything to do with Priests blatantly ignoring Summorum Pontificum.

 

[Onegin]

Friend, I respectfully suggest your wrong.There are issues in the Catecheism that have a BROADER understanding than in the past: salvation only through the CC for example; where the Dogma has NOT changed, but he understanding of a LIVING Church has.

What does this mean?

There only is salvation through the Catholic Church, providing for situations of invincible ignorance, and the Mystical Body of Christ is composed of the Catholic Church alone.

I’m not sure what “broader understanding” of that you can possibly mean. If anything, Catholics are now more confused than ever about what the above actually means.

 

[ProVobis]

Of course, I respectfully disagree…

Please explain the “LIVING Church”… I look forward to your reply and explanation.

God Bless

Indeed. When I see the word “living” I see that as an attempt to stifle all the saints, the doctors, the Popes, the art, the music, the councils of the Triumphant Church in favor of some oppressor group which continues to condition everyone to an easier life and makes them see there is no need to learn.

 

[ProVobis]

Agreed!

They are also helping to ensure the Tridentine is a form of the Mass that will be celebrated in relatively minuscule numbers. More unintended consequences.

Remember the rule about pointing fingers. Three fingers point back at you.

 

[ProVobis]

Traditionalists are not waiting for the O.F. to die out, 'though they expect it could happen. They are waiting for Bishops opposed to the TLM to die out.

Depends also on what O.F. you mean:

The 1969 Missal with Latin and chant, said ad-orientem;
The 1970 - 2010 version with none of the above but with added novelties and antiquities;
The 2011(?) version with corrections.

Actually the O.F. is a genre of various options, vernaculars, cultures, music, innovations, degrees of reverence, levels of morality, practices, etc. with little attempt to unify or standardize. It really can’t be compared to the E.F. as such. The 2007 SP has added the E.F. as one extra option into the O.F. world. Dislike of E.F. as well as avoidance of the Spanish O.F. and other liturgies are only a normal attitudes/behaviors given what the Church has put everyone through. In marketing, every product has a life cycle and unfortunately the N.O. has itself become subject to being extinguished, if not wholely, then at least parts which are pleasing to only a few. The E.F. can survive, however, if there is at least a remnant of those who wish it to survive. It has shown that to be true whereas the Novus Ordo has proved nothing in the wider scheme of things.

Good questions, though.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

But your argument makes no sense. Initially you asserted that, if there is interest in the TLM, a parishoner need only to ask and it will be supplied. Now you are saying that, in order to ask, there need first to be a “stable community.” If people don’t know about the TLM in the first place (which, I hope we can agree that many don’t), then they will never have the opportunity to be exposed to it unless these “stable communities” start appearing out of the ether to request TLMs.
Let me be more specific: a group of people should ask. It is unrealistic to think that a pastor is going to change a schedule of Masses for one person. And you seem to think that if people are exposed to it, they’re going to be enthused. I don’t think they will be. Like At Trent’s poll, I’m sure people would say, “Sure, I’ll go.” Then they’d go, realize it’s in Latin, realize that they cannot hear the priest for significant portions of the Mass, etc. I believe for the most part, they’re going to say, "Oh, well, I guess that was nice…but I like the Mass in my language and I like to be able to hear it."

Let me give you two first-hand accounts of my attempts to request a TLM. Both occurred some time after Summorum Pontificum. The first was at a Catholic University that I won’t name out of charity. It is enough to say that it is highly regarded as “orthodox” within the Catholic world. A large group of students, interested in access to the TLM, compiled a petition to request (in accordance with Summorum Pontificum) for a TLM to be said on campus. The petition received a few hundred signatures. The request was denied twice. After I graduated, I was informed that, after some further argument over the matter, the school had decided to provide a shuttle so that students could attend the TLM in the local city. Now, I honestly do not know, but I read somewhere that institutions and orders were not bound by SP. Perhaps it was Br.JREducation, but I’m not certain.

The second occurred at a much larger Catholic school with similar results (petition denied with several hundred signatures). Both schools offered several Masses on Sunday both in the morning and the afternoon. See above.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Indeed. When I see the word “living” I see that as an attempt to stifle all the saints, the doctors, the Popes, the art, the music, the councils of the Triumphant Church in favor of some oppressor group which continues to condition everyone to an easier life and makes them see there is no need to learn.

Oh, for pity’s sake, he meant the LIVING magisterium, the one we have now, NOT divorced from before, but holding the same teaching authority, the one that some “traditionalists” discount.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by SGT ROCK 33
Why was it necessary to reform the Liturgy? That’s the question… Why? I see no reason as to why it was necessary to reform the Liturgy…none whatsoever. The teachings on the form and matter of consecration were set in stone…set in stone, by several Popes and Councils. Why was it changed? Why were the words of consecration changed? Why was it necessary to change from latin to the vernacular? Why was it necessary to change the teachings on religious liberty?

***It had noting to do with need,

nothing to do with logic,

AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH

Personal opinions of a great many Bishops, priest, religious who thought they KNEW MORE AND KNEW BETTER learned by Martin Luther no doubt] that God, th Magisterium and the what used to be; Supreme Pontiff***.