What is the only feasible way out of the current crisis?

  • Thread starter Thread starter At_Trent
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JKirkLVNV said:
That isn’t the mind of the Church, re: the Holy Father’s instructions to the bishops. And let’s face it, the EF isn’t as popular as you’d like to believe. The OF is pretty safe, I’d say, given the Pope’s desires and the general preference on the part of the faithful for Mass in the vernacular (as Ojtm has observed elsewhere). Relatively few people regreat the loss of Latin in the liturgy.
Click to expand...
btw, in France, it’s quite popular because it’s actually available thanks to the SSPX 😉
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Fair enough. I apologize. I’ve never heard anyone dengigrate the old Mass and I’ve known a few very liberal nuns (for instance). I’ve heard people say that they prefer the new Mass to the old, but they didn’t run it down, beyond saying that.

But look back to the beginning of this thread: It’s basically another “to solve the problems of the Church” (the OP doesn’t identify the crisis, whether it’s the paedophilia crisis or what) “we ditch the OF and have only the EF” (I paraphrased the last bit) thread. Most of the liberals who DON’T like the OF, such as Fr. Richard O’Brien or Bishop Gumbleton perhaps or Sr. Joan Chichester, OSB, don’t post in these fora. Most of the people who post and read here are just plain, orthodox Catholics, a great number of whom actually like the OF, have been nurtured on the OF, and regard it has possessing what the Council called for (a “noble simplicity”) when it is rightly celebrated. We don’t want it to go away. I’ve never read in these fora anyone calling for the abrogation of the EF, yet people feel perfectly fine to disparge and denigrate the OF. The arrogance, the triumphalism, the anger, and the paranoia (you yourself said something to the effect that “the OF crowd can do no wrong, the EF crowd can do no good.” Where, for pity’s sake, did anyone here post THAT?) COULD, just POSSIBLY, mind you, lead someone to think “The EF? If this is what it engenders, then count me out!” ****As has been observed before, some of the EF’s worst enemies are its own devotees. If this thread is an example of the charity you would extend to those of us who love the OF, well, don’t wonder that we aren’t enthusiastic.
Click to expand...
But don’t you understand? A point I’ve been trying to make for the longest time now, which has completely bounced off most of you, is that you (plural you) aren’t any better. You hurl insults and ridicule traditionals, talk down to them and treat them in a condescending manner. All you succeed in doing is hardening them in their position. If this is the way you people “evangelize” to your “separated brethren,” no wonder conversions are down in the Church. I’m quite sure you would never speak to a protestant, moslem, jew or anyone else outside of the Church in the same manner you speak to traditionals.

Is it any wonder that WE aren’t enthusiastic? For those of us who have lived through this from the beginning, all it is is the same old same old; nothing has changed in forty years. The same old tired and worn out excuses, sophistic arguments, rationalizations and silly explanations that we were fed in the sixties and seventies are being resurrected again, especially in light of the success of the Pontifical Mass in Washington, D.C. on the 24th of April.

There must be a way we can live in peace. All of this is just a tactic of satan to keep us from more important things…such as our sanctification and the salvation of our souls.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
It still won’t happen. Those waiting for the OF to disappear are simply spinning their wheels in bitterness and anger.
Click to expand...
Not true. As I said earlier, it will die out on its own, long after you, Kirk, are gone. Or, if you are young enough, you may live to witness its disappearance. Then people will be traveling all over, hundreds of miles every Sunday, just to find an OF Mass. Just like the traditionals do now.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
They do! They simply have to ask.
Click to expand...
And, as we’ve already seen in many dioceses, those requests continue to go ignored, even after the recent clarification in Poland.

Some Catholics are even too afraid to ask if they live in a “hostile” diocese. Sad but true.
 
Lormar said:
But don’t you understand? A point I’ve been trying to make for the longest time now, which has completely bounced off most of you, is that you (plural you) aren’t any better. You hurl insults and ridicule traditionals, talk down to them and treat them in a condescending manner. All you succeed in doing is hardening them in their position. If this is the way you people “evangelize” to your “separated brethren,” no wonder conversions are down in the Church. I’m quite sure you would never speak to a protestant, moslem, jew or anyone else outside of the Church in the same manner you speak to traditionals.

I genuinely do not think you are right, and I think any objective third party reading these fora would come away saying that the “traditionalists” are FAR more insulting, far more ridiculing. I know people lose patience with them (I know I do), but we don’t start the insulting, YOU people do. Look at the first post of this thread. And how many of “us” start threads that attack the EF? How many “us” start threads that criticize women FOR wearing veils? How many of “us” start threads that disparge the practice of receiving Holy Communion on the tongue? “YOU,” however, (not necessarily YOU, Lormar) frequently initate threads that demean and disparge the OF and which attempt to coerce the consciences of people in areas where the Church has granted a liberty (veiling and mode of reception). Most of “us” post in response to THAT kind of thing. Sure, maybe somewhere there’s a “liberal” or “progressivist” Catholic fora where there IS actual denigration of the EF or veils or tradition, but it sure isn’t here. I think you have to admit that.

Is it any wonder that WE aren’t enthusiastic? For those of us who have lived through this from the beginning, all it is is the same old same old; nothing has changed in forty years. The same old tired and worn out excuses, sophistic arguments, rationalizations and silly explanations that we were fed in the sixties and seventies are being resurrected again, especially in light of the success of the Pontifical Mass in Washington, D.C. on the 24th of April.

There must be a way we can live in peace. All of this is just a tactic of satan to keep us from more important things…such as our sanctification and the salvation of our souls.
Click to expand...
Yeah, we can live in peace: stop making false assertions about the Church and the OF. Leave me to worship in the way the Church allows me. But if “you” (and again, not necessarily YOU, Lormar) going to assert the absurdities of the first few posts in this fora and some of the outright lies and distortions in others of them, then “we” are going to be there to A) correct “you” and B) call “you” on it. If error isn’t posted, then there would be no need for “us” to venture here (except I’m reckoned a “traditional” Catholic by everyone except “you.”).
 
Onegin said:
And, as we’ve already seen in many dioceses, those requests continue to go ignored, even after the recent clarification in Poland.

Some Catholics are even too afraid to ask if they live in a “hostile” diocese. Sad but true.
Click to expand...
There have to be stable communites that want and support it. Surely in reason you see that?

In my parish, an orthodox one, we have, counting the Vigil, eight masses on the weekend. There are all of them full, and several are what could be described as “packed.” Now, as far as I know, my priest, who chats with me about things, has never been approached by anyone asking for the EF. Let’s say 5 people do, out of a parish of over 6000 families. Which OF mass should Fr. cancel? Right now, it’s a moot point anyway, since he hasn’t been asked, but which Mass should give way for the needs of five?

We have a small SSPX community here, about 150 people). That’s less than will fill one section of pews in my parish church. So I guess the answer is for the SSPX to make their submission and all the people in this valley who aspire to the EF can then go to that chapel. Those 150 are the only ones who can reliably be said to want the EF at this particular time.
 
Lormar said:
Not true. As I said earlier, it will die out on its own, long after you, Kirk, are gone. Or, if you are young enough, you may live to witness its disappearance. Then people will be traveling all over, hundreds of miles every Sunday, just to find an OF Mass. Just like the traditionals do now.
Click to expand...
I don’t think this is realistic, given people’s reactions thus far, given people’s propensity for the vernacular, and given the Holy Father’s wishes and mind on this subject. I think you’re simply bitter and whistling past the graveyard (and I’m sorry for that). It simply isn’t in that much demand. More likely, we’ll see a hybrid, the two forms influencing each other. That’s far more realistic, but “traditionalists” don’t like that either.
 
I can see it has bounced off of you as well, Kirk.

What is it with you people? Do you really think that you are beyond reproach? Is it really that hard to admit that you may not be perfect?

You miss it all around.

And this just proves all that I have written.

The gulf between us is wide. It will be at least another two generations before there will be any progress made toward healing the differences and bridging the widening gap.

This is all just a waste of everyone’s time. Better to pray the Rosary.
 
Those waiting for the OF to disappear are simply spinning their wheels in bitterness and anger.
Click to expand...
The first English OF will be disappearing soon due mostly to lack of interest, although the official Vatican line is that it wants to be more faithful to the Latin by replacing it. But throw stones at me if you want, but we all know darn well that if you had taken away the communion and the obligation :eek:, the English NO would have disappeared a long time ago. That’s probably why they’re downplaying grave sins and pushing communion so hard. The NO simply can’t stand on its own merits. No wonder, it’s all about a meal to most.
 
Lormar said:
I can see it has bounced off of you as well, Kirk.

What is it with you people? Do you really think that you are beyond reproach? Is it really that hard to admit that you may not be perfect?

You miss it all around.

And this just proves all that I have written.

The gulf between us is wide. It will be at least another two generations before there will be any progress made toward healing the differences and bridging the widening gap.

This is all just a waste of everyone’s time. Better to pray the Rosary.
Click to expand...
Oh, my word! Look, ma’am, really, truly, go through these fora. Look for yourself at whom the invective is aimed and who produces it.

AND YOUR way of bridging the gap IS NOT the Church’s way, expressed by the Holy Father in Summorum Pontificum! He intends the forms to coexist!

You’ve proven nothing. Your reasoning doesn’t stand up to reasoning.
 
The Novus Ordo mass was imposed universally by fiat. Comparing its ‘popularity’ with the TLM is not fair. TLM adherents have had to struggle to keep it going. If people were given a choice in 1970 about which Mass they’d favour, I wonder what the numbers would have been like.

If there’s a resurgence of the TLM, it may take decades, unless Heaven intervenes directly. I suspect it won’t. Modernism needs to be shown to be an empty heresy so subsequent generations of priests will not be tempted to play around with our religion. Darwinism will decide instead.

e.g. Which Mass generates fervour and vocations? Which Mass’s adherents are less likely to contracept and have more sons to become priests? That sort of thing.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Oh, my word! Look, ma’am, really, truly, go through these fora. Look for yourself at whom the invective is aimed and who produces it.

AND YOUR way of bridging the gap IS NOT the Church’s way, expressed by the Holy Father in Summorum Pontificum! He intends the forms to coexist!

You’ve proven nothing. Your reasoning doesn’t stand up to reasoning.
Click to expand...
Are you being purposely obtuse, or is it really beyond you?

You’ve proven nothing - except my point.
 
ProVobis said:
The first English OF will be disappearing soon due mostly to lack of interest, although the official Vatican line is that it wants to be more faithful to the Latin by replacing it. But throw stones at me if you want, but we all know darn well that if you had taken away the communion and the obligation :eek:, the English NO would have disappeared a long time ago. That’s probably why they’re downplaying grave sins and pushing communion so hard. The NO simply can’t stand on its own merits.
Click to expand...
’

:rotfl:

Given that Mass attendance is a matter of salvation, I doubt that the EF would have done any better had it been removed. This is one of the more…interesting assertions I’ve heard made, though every assertion you make, ProVobis, gives me greater hope for that which you inveigh against.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
We have a small SSPX community here, about 150 people). That’s less than will fill one section of pews in my parish church. So I guess the answer is for the SSPX to make their submission and all the people in this valley who aspire to the EF can then go to that chapel. Those 150 are the only ones who can reliably be said to want the EF at this particular time.
Click to expand...
Watch how they grow once they are reconciled. 🙂
 
Lormar said:
Are you being purposely obtuse, or is it really beyond you?

You’ve proven nothing - except my point.
Click to expand...
You assert that “we” are worse, right? You assert that we denigrate and demean the EF, correct? That we demean you? Could you please show me where this has taken place?
 
Layman said:
The Novus Ordo mass was imposed universally by fiat. Comparing its ‘popularity’ with the TLM is not fair. TLM adherents have had to struggle to keep it going. If people were given a choice in 1970 about which Mass they’d favour, I wonder what the numbers would have been like.

If there’s a resurgence of the TLM, it may take decades, unless Heaven intervenes directly. I suspect it won’t. Modernism needs to be shown to be an empty heresy so subsequent generations of priests will not be tempted to play around with our religion. Darwinism will decide instead.

e.g. Which Mass generates fervour and vocations? Which Mass’s adherents are less likely to contracept and have more sons to become priests? That sort of thing.
Click to expand...
A) Modernism and the OF are not equivalent.

B) Priestly vocations, while still not what they could be, are up.

That sort of thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top