What is the only feasible way out of the current crisis?

[At_Trent]

I say it’s to begin phasing out the OF. Train the seminarians to pray the EF. Have them pray it exclusively after their ordination.

What of the EMHC, the lay lectors, the altar girls, etc. ? Promote the traditional roles. Choir, Third Orders, etc.

It’s crazy as is. As long as there are 2 forms of the Mass, there will be division, no matter how much we pretend there isn’t. At our local parish that offers both forms, it’s blatantly obvious. I’m sure there are exceptions, but those leaving the OF Mass tend to ignore those arriving for the EF that follows. Not just me, I’ve seen folks in front of me greeting those leaving the OF, and time and time again, they are ignored, get cold looks, or those leaving the OF just look the other way. Sad.

The EF will put everyone on the same page. I’ve thought long about this. I can’t think of any other way.

Thoughts ?

 

[Onegin]

As long as you have both in the same parish, I agree that there will be problems. The two Masses embrace conflicting theologies. It is like trying to marry two opposing viewpoints which simply cannot work.

But I think that a return to tradition begins with Catechesis first and foremost. Teach Catholics why the TLM is the most beautiful and true form of Catholic worship and the rest will follow.

 

[PJM]

=At Trent;6596581]I say it’s to begin phasing out the OF. Train the seminarians to pray the EF. Have them pray it exclusively after their ordination.

What of the EMHC, the lay lectors, the altar girls, etc. ? Promote the traditional roles. Choir, Third Orders, etc.

It’s crazy as is. As long as there are 2 forms of the Mass, there will be division, no matter how much we pretend there isn’t. At our local parish that offers both forms, it’s blatantly obvious. I’m sure there are exceptions, but those leaving the OF Mass tend to ignore those arriving for the EF that follows. Not just me, I’ve seen folks in front of me greeting those leaving the OF, and time and time again, they are ignored, get cold looks, or those leaving the OF just look the other way. Sad.

The EF will put everyone on the same page. I’ve thought long about this. I can’t think of any other way.

Thoughts ?

At this juncture either DIRECT Intervention by God, or a BOLD Papal mandate are the only solutations. I don’t forsee either on the horizon; BUT GOD REMAINS IN CHARGE!

 

[At_Trent]

As long as you have both in the same parish, I agree that there will be problems. The two Masses embrace conflicting theologies. It is like trying to marry two opposing viewpoints which simply cannot work.

But I think that a return to tradition begins with Catechesis first and foremost. Teach Catholics why the TLM is the most beautiful and true form of Catholic worship and the rest will follow.

I agree, but who will teach them ? How will we convince an OF priest to promote the EF from the pulpit during an OF Mass ? How can an OF priest convince them without actually praying the EF ?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

From Pope Benedict’s Letter to the Bishops of the world at the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum:

" It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite."

And…

“The fear was expressed in discussions about the awaited Motu Proprio, that the possibility of a wider use of the 1962 Missal would lead to disarray or even divisions within parish communities. This fear also strikes me as quite unfounded. The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often. Already from these concrete presuppositions, it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful.’”

And…

“The celebration of the Mass according to the Missal of Paul VI will be able to demonstrate, more powerfully than has been the case hitherto, the sacrality which attracts many people to the former usage. The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives. This will bring out the spiritual richness and the theological depth of this Missal.”

And…

“I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: “Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!” (2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.”

And…

“There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.”

 

[At_Trent]

At this juncture either DIRECT Intervention by God, or a BOLD Papal mandate are the only solutations. I don’t forsee either on the horizon; BUT GOD REMAINS IN CHARGE!

As long as we remember God is in charge, we can weather it. The Papal Mandate is what I’m seeing as the only solution.

 

[At_Trent]

From Pope Benedict’s Letter to the Bishops of the world at the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum:

Fair enough, but how many take it to heart ? The division is still there. That was a letter to the Bishops. How many laity have read it ? 1% ? How many Bishops embrace it ? Certainly one would think all would, but they don’t. Only some do.

We are coming up on the 3 year mark. What will the Bishops say in the response H.H. asked for ?

 

[Onegin]

I agree, but who will teach them ? How will we convince an OF priest to promote the EF from the pulpit during an OF Mass ? How can an OF priest convince them without actually praying the EF ?

Well, as I don’t hold out any hope of a Papal Mandate with the current Pope, I’m vying for some resolution with the SSPX that will lead to an increase in Traditional Seminaries and Traditional Priests who will then, hopefully, influence or phase out the modernist ones.

But as even that may not happen I go back to Catechism. I think the duty to Catechise can no longer be seen exclusively as with the Priest since so few care to do it (or teach erroneous Catechism). I see the solution involving an individual duty on the part of each one of us to educate ourselves and then to do the best we can to spread the knowledge to others. It will be slow, yes, but it will be something.

 

[Lormar]

It will die out on its own.

 

[At_Trent]

Well, as I don’t hold out any hope of a Papal Mandate with the current Pope, I’m vying for some resolution with the SSPX that will lead to an increase in Traditional Seminaries and Traditional Priests who will then, hopefully, influence or phase out the modernist ones.

But as even that may not happen I go back to Catechism. I think the duty to Catechise can no longer be seen exclusively as with the Priest since so few care to do it (or teach erroneous Catechism). I see the solution involving an individual duty on the part of each one of us to educate ourselves and then to do the best we can to spread the knowledge to others. It will be slow, yes, but it will be something.

Agreed, we must do what we can. And pray, a lot

 

[At_Trent]

It will die out on its own.

It will, via Christ’s promise.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

A) First quotation: One rite, two usages, both legitimate.

B) In the second quotation, the Holy Father seems to think the OF will remain and be continued, because of “actual situations in the communities of the faithful.” I think so to, because 1) most people are attached to what they know and 2) the OF is offered in their own tongue, which MOST people, if polled, would probably indicate that they preferred.

C) Third quotation: Obviously, the OF must be celebrated with the diginity and reverence that the Holy Father, at least, believes is inherent in it. Trouble is, some “traditionalists” think it inherently flawed. To whom will most people listen? Probably the pope, since most “traditionalists” who care to speak or write on the subject (setting aside those who simply want to worship according to the EF and aren’t interested in “triumphing” or “ascendency” or “winning”) range from really angry extremists who aren’t listened to anyway because they espouse other wing-nut propositions (Bishop Williamson with his Holocaust denial and denunciation of the “The Sound of Music” spring to mind) to moderately angry extremists who cannot extol the EF without damning the OF, cannot sing the praises of the one without disparging the other. I suspect the reaction of many devout, orthodox Catholics who happen to prefer the OF, or who simply haven’t experienced the EF, to this kind of jingoistic rhetoric would be,“Count me out.” I prefer the Mass in the vernacular myself, but I tried to be charitable enough to pray, before Summorum Pontificum, that the devotees of the EF would have their hearts desire. What I have to fight against now is the growing suspicion that the arrogance and hatred toward the Mass that lead me into the Church might actually be engendered by the EF, might be the RESULT of the EF. Fortunately, I realize that IS NOT the case, but since these seem to be the kinds of people that DO frequent the EF, I won’t be any time soon.

D) Open our hearts and make room for everything the faith allows? Wow, sounds like a really good idea. What are the odds that would happen if the SSPX or even the FSSP were in charge?

E) “Recognition of its value and holiness,” in reference to the OF. Hmmm…the Holy Father really should hang out in the “Traditional Catholicism” forum on CA.

 

[SGT_ROCK_33]

I agree, but who will teach them ? How will we convince an OF priest to promote the EF from the pulpit during an OF Mass ? How can an OF priest convince them without actually praying the EF ?

I have to say that it all starts with a return to true Catechism. I’ve seen some of the modern Catechism being taught and I have heard terrible stories of RCIA instructors and even Parish Priests teaching heretical doctrine. What happened to the Baltimore Catechism? Why was this left behind? I know many Catholics that cannot answer even the simplest of quesitons regarding the faith.

I attended Catholic School from K-8 during the 80’s and my 7 kids, who are homeschooled, learn more studying for their First Communion than I did in 9 years of religious classes in a Catholic School. It all starts with learning the basic beliefs of our Faith.

I also tend to wonder how on earth there can be two Masses. TWO? How is this possible? The Tridentine Mass is extraordinary? I think that the sooner the Church gets back to the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass, and away from the Lord’s Supper, the better.

There are so many other things to bring up, but I think that returning to true Catechism and the return of the Tridentine Mass will absolutely help in healing the division within the Church. These would only be the first steps of course, we still have a long way to go to right the ship…

All in my humble opinion…

God Bless

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I have to say that it all starts with a return to true Catechism. I’ve seen some of the modern Catechism being taught and I have heard terrible stories of RCIA instructors and even Parish Priests teaching heretical doctrine. What happened to the Baltimore Catechism? Why was this left behind? I know many Catholics that cannot answer even the simplest of quesitons regarding the faith.

I attended Catholic School from K-8 during the 80’s and my 7 kids, who are homeschooled, learn more studying for their First Communion than I did in 9 years of religious classes in a Catholic School. It all starts with learning the basic beliefs of our Faith.

I also tend to wonder how on earth there can be two Masses. TWO? How is this possible? The Tridentine Mass is extraordinary? I think that the sooner the Church gets back to the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass, and away from the Lord’s Supper, the better.

There are so many other things to bring up, but I think that returning to true Catechism and the return of the Tridentine Mass will absolutely help in healing the division within the Church. These would only be the first steps of course, we still have a long way to go to right the ship…

All in my humble opinion…

God Bless

When you say “true Catechism,” what do you mean? The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *was declared by Ven. Pope John Paul II “to be a sure norm for teaching the faith.”

 

[At_Trent]

A) First quotation: One rite, two usages, both legitimate.

B) In the second quotation, the Holy Father seems to think the OF will remain and be continued, because of “actual situations in the communities of the faithful.” I think so to, because 1) most people are attached to what they know and 2) the OF is offered in their own tongue, which MOST people, if polled, would probably indicate that they preferred.

C) Third quotation: Obviously, the OF must be celebrated with the diginity and reverence that the Holy Father, at least, believes is inherent in it. Trouble is, some “traditionalists” think it inherently flawed. To whom will most people listen? Probably the pope, since most “traditionalists” who care to speak or write on the subject (setting aside those who simply want to worship according to the EF and aren’t interested in “triumphing” or “ascendency” or “winning”) range from really angry extremists who aren’t listened to anyway because they espouse other wing-nut propositions (Bishop Williamson with his Holocaust denial and denunciation of the “The Sound of Music” spring to mind) to moderately angry extremists who cannot extol the EF without damning the OF, cannot sing the praises of the one without disparging the other. I suspect the reaction of many devout, orthodox Catholics who happen to prefer the OF, or who simply haven’t experienced the EF, to this kind of jingoistic rhetoric would be,“Count me out.” I prefer the Mass in the vernacular myself, but I tried to be charitable enough to pray, before Summorum Pontificum, that the devotees of the EF would have their hearts desire. What I have to fight against now is the growing suspicion that the arrogance and hatred toward the Mass that lead me into the Church might actually be engendered by the EF, might be the RESULT of the EF. Fortunately, I realize that IS NOT the case, but since these seem to be the kinds of people that DO frequent the EF, I won’t be any time soon.

D) Open our hearts and make room for everything the faith allows? Wow, sounds like a really good idea. What are the odds that would happen if the SSPX or even the FSSP were in charge?

E) “Recognition of its value and holiness,” in reference to the OF. Hmmm…the Holy Father really should hang out in the “Traditional Catholicism” forum on CA.

You don’t have to convince me, I go to both forms. But the judgment of others keeps you away from the EF as admitted. So you don’t embrace what you pretend to support do you ? All you are doing is pouring gas on the fire of division, which helps prove my concerns per the OP are not unfounded.

Your presentation of the letter was pertinent. Your summary and comments that follow have bit you on the rear friend.

 

[SGT_ROCK_33]

When you say “true Catechism,” what do you mean? The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *was declared by Ven. Pope John Paul II “to be a sure norm for teaching the faith.”

I understand… And I know what you are saying.

In true charity, it is my opinion that some of the Catechism contradicts what has been taught in the past. However, I don’t believe that this thread is debating that particular issue. There is another thread available to debate this issue and I wouldn’t want to take away from the original post.

To truly answer your post, I don’t believe that the current Catechism is even being taught in full… There are threads all over on here that will back up my statement…sad.

God Bless

 

[Lormar]

You don’t have to convince me, I go to both forms. But the judgment of others keeps you away from the EF as admitted. So you don’t embrace what you pretend to support do you ? All you are doing is pouring gas on the fire of division, which helps prove my concerns per the OP are not unfounded.

Your presentation of the letter was pertinent. Your summary and comments that follow have bit you on the rear friend.

Thanks for writing this; I thought the same thing. Isn’t Kirk the one who mentioned “divisions” somewhere else?

I, too, go to both forms. I have been accused of being everything on CAF here. Normally, I can’t be bothered defending myself against those who make rash judgments against me. The fact that they do it tells me all I need to know about them. PLEASE NOTE LAS VEGAS KIRK: The latter remarks are not meant for you.

Thank you.

 

[At_Trent]

I have to say that it all starts with a return to true Catechism. I’ve seen some of the modern Catechism being taught and I have heard terrible stories of RCIA instructors and even Parish Priests teaching heretical doctrine. What happened to the Baltimore Catechism? Why was this left behind? I know many Catholics that cannot answer even the simplest of quesitons regarding the faith.

I attended Catholic School from K-8 during the 80’s and my 7 kids, who are homeschooled, learn more studying for their First Communion than I did in 9 years of religious classes in a Catholic School. It all starts with learning the basic beliefs of our Faith.

I also tend to wonder how on earth there can be two Masses. TWO? How is this possible? The Tridentine Mass is extraordinary? I think that the sooner the Church gets back to the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass, and away from the Lord’s Supper, the better.

There are so many other things to bring up, but I think that returning to true Catechism and the return of the Tridentine Mass will absolutely help in healing the division within the Church. These would only be the first steps of course, we still have a long way to go to right the ship…

All in my humble opinion…

God Bless

Well said. It does have to start with the Mass.

 

[At_Trent]

Thanks for writing this; I thought the same thing. Isn’t Kirk the one who mentioned “divisions” somewhere else?

I, too, go to both forms. I have been accused of being everything on CAF here. Normally, I can’t be bothered defending myself against those who make rash judgments against me. The fact that they do it tells me all I need to know about them. PLEASE NOTE LAS VEGAS KIRK: The latter remarks are not meant for you.

Thank you.

Well, I take no delight in being able to say " Gottcha!" , but I see no other way to reply to his apparent rejection of what he preaches.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You don’t have to convince me, I go to both forms. But the judgment of others keeps you away from the EF as admitted. So you don’t embrace what you pretend to support do you ? All you are doing is pouring gas on the fire of division, which helps prove my concerns per the OP are not unfounded.

Your presentation of the letter was pertinent. Your summary and comments that follow have bit you on the rear friend.

I don’t know what you mean. The ATTITUDE of others keeps me from attending the EF, but not BECAUSE of the EF, as I said. It’s because I’d be with a group of people who would gladly see the Mass I love (and which brought me into the Church) abrogated (for example). It would be rather like someone calling my mother a whore. I’m not apt to want to associate much with such a person, am I, realistically? Do I embrace the EF? I regard it as a venerable and beloved rite of the Church, which should be provided to stable communities that want it. If it were offered in the vernacular, I would probably attend, as it’s prose is beautiful. I myself, however, prefer the OF.