What is the only feasible way out of the current crisis?

[wisdomseeker]

No, no, no, all you’re doing is engaging in distracting rhetoric. You have valid points, but you still haven’t answered the argument. Does God need the Mass in Latin? Why did the Church change from Greek? What is inherently WRONG with it in the vernacular, especially if YOU are reading it in the same vernacular from your missal?

And the Church still has all of the things you mention. You know, “traditinalists” keep harping on about how the OF is less than a sacrifice than the EF, but I listen to the Mass and I read it and it seems clear to me (as has been pointed out) that the OF is EVERY bit as much of a propitiatory sacrifice as the EF. How many times does the word have to be mentioned before the Sacrifice is effectual?

Maybe you should read this.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0307fea1.asp

 

[wisdomseeker]

May I respectfully ask why?

it is a difficult thing to explain. the other day i was watching fr Pacwa(i think it was him) explaining with examples about words changing meaning and it was very interesting.

you may seek to understand this through a Traditional website.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Pope St Pius V settled the matter a long time ago. Every pope who followed him, including John XXII, was OK with that. John XXIII gave us the 1962 Missal. He gave us Veterum Sapientia. Scroll down to “Responsibility of enforcement” and see what he commanded and decreed be forbidden.

Just as this good Saint told us

The novelties and revolutionary changes that came after VII were never part of Tradition. They were always rejected, just as the man who called VII rejected them. But months after his death they were embraced.

Fruits ? A heretic receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award. A nun speaking publicly and promoting what the Church has repeatedly forbidden since day one. No repercussions for her, but a diocese will sell a Roman Catholic church to a Protestant group rather than sell it to an order of Roman Catholic priests. Daily reports of Liturgical Abuse. Pro Choice supporter speaking at a Roman Catholic university.

You ok with all of that just because it doesn’t seem to bother the USCCB ? I don’t think you are ok with it, but that said, how can you not sympathize with those who despise what enables it ?

Some just refuse to see it. when going to Mass, if going to a different Parish, no telling what you are going to get. i went to a Parish today, i did not see women going to the Taberncle, thanks be to God, but this Parish had a wooden Cross with a white sheet around, i did not see Jesus on the Cross. the Sanctuary had Jesus risen and around a bunch of basket of plants and flower. strange decoration.

here is the thing, it seems that these priests are all doing their own thing. they dont seem to be regulated by any authority.

 

[At_Trent]

Some just refuse to see it. when going to Mass, if going to a different Parish, no telling what you are going to get. i went to a Parish today, i did not see women going to the Taberncle, thanks be to God, but this Parish had a wooden Cross with a white sheet around, i did not see Jesus on the Cross. the Sanctuary had Jesus risen and around a bunch of basket of plants and flower. strange decoration.

here is the thing, it seems that these priests are all doing their own thing. they dont seem to be regulated by any authority.

Right, their own signature Mass. That’s not universal

There is a late evening OF here in town, and when I have to work a little later than usual, getting home at 3 am on Sunday morning, I miss the EF I attend on Sunday. I’ll go to the 5:15 OF at my home parish instead, getting there early so I can sit in a front pew so I don’t have to observe women and young girls baring their thighs, shoulders and cleavage.

Anyhow, I’ll usually go to that later 10pm Mass as well. Fairly reverent, no lighting, just candles. The priest is a good one, and his sermons are great. But last Sunday, he wheeled out a TV on a cart after the sermon and had us watch a video. Good grief, the parish provided DVD’s of it. That was as irritating as having to listen to a lector read us the bulletin during the collection.

I know walking into an OF Mass expecting and looking to find something wrong is certainly not a good thing, but when it keeps getting thrown in our face, what are we to do ? I dunno, at least at the weekday OF Mass, there is no nonsense, and those there are there for the right reason, unlike Sundays when so many seem to be going through the motions.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Right, their own signature Mass. That’s not universal

There is a late evening OF here in town, and when I have to work a little later than usual, getting home at 3 am on Sunday morning, I miss the EF I attend on Sunday. I’ll go to the 5:15 OF at my home parish instead, getting there early so I can sit in a front pew so I don’t have to observe women and young girls baring their thighs, shoulders and cleavage.

Anyhow, I’ll usually go to that later 10pm Mass as well. Fairly reverent, no lighting, just candles. The priest is a good one, and his sermons are great. But last Sunday, he wheeled out a TV on a cart after the sermon and had us watch a video. Good grief, the parish provided DVD’s of it. That was as irritating as having to listen to a lector read us the bulletin during the collection.

I know walking into an OF Mass expecting and looking to find something wrong is certainly not a good thing, but when it keeps getting thrown in our face, what are we to do ? I dunno, at least at the weekday OF Mass, there is no nonsense, and those there are there for the right reason, unlike Sundays when so many seem to be going through the motions.

I have no intention of constant criticizing the new Mass. but i cannot help but notice all the innapropriations that i see everytime i go to Mass. every priest is doing something diferent. and it is not getting any better but worse. it is time for the EF Mass to come in. it is upsetting many people what is going with the OF at least in my area.

i just got this from another thread, it is beautifull. see what we are missing?

vimeo.com/8941838

 

[JKirkLVNV]

God doesn’t need the Mass at all. We need it. That’s my point.

Thank you for saying that, it’s something I’ve said, too. I’ve heard lots of traditionalists say,“But it’s about God, not about us!” While I think the horizontal has been far too emphasized, I’m not certain I can give full intellectual assent to the statement in quotations. God DOESN’T the Mass, God doesn’t need anything at all. The Mass exists as a gift to us, a bridge, a way, an actual covenant (not merely a sign) between Him and us. It is US who need the Mass. I would humbly suggest that there should be a tension between the horizontal and the vertical, not a tension of conflict, but the tension that is necessary in the strings of a guitar or cello for the intrument to work: too slack and it won’t play, too taut and it will snap. That is one reason that I think ad orientam is magnificent, but the vernacular is as well. I stipulate wholeheartedly to the grievous loss of sacred art in church architecture and church music, but I still think that the Mass in the vernacular can be of value (in an interview with Raymond Arroyo, then-Cardinal Ratzinger called it “helpful”), can have benefits in addition to it’s primary purpose, accomplished in both the OF and the EF, of confecting the Holy Sacrifice.

Why did the Church change from Greek? I don’t know. I’m guessing that politically it was a smart move to change to the language of the Roman Empire. Thus, in time, Christ’s Vicar sat on a throne in the capital of His executioners. As he does today.** I think you make an austute observation in the word political, but insofar as it was pragmatic: it was the language of the conquerors, the language of their law, their customs, etc. It spread throughout the known world and was useful in conveying the meaning of the Faith, because most people would have some of it, at least a smattering, enough to get by on in life if not a fluency. It was simple practicality that dictated it, not the desire for a sacral language (because they could have simply kept the Greek). **

When did that happen? In the infancy of the Church, I’d guess. 1500+ years later, things are very different. People are literate, for one. We are now called the Roman (Latin) Catholic Church. **Dumping Latin is a wheeze a bad marketing exec might do in a big company: “Let’s meddle with the brand!”. **

We have also had a hateful dumbing-down in Western society and I’m sorry to say the Church has gone along with it.

A small example: the British Daily Mail newspaper printed an exam paper from the Edwardian era. For 12 year olds. Most adults with third-level education could barely get a pass mark in it now. Including me.

**People can certainly understand every word of the Mass now. It’s on their level. Thus, what’s special about it? **

**Hence, casual behaviour at Mass. **

I don’t know. I’m just going by what I see. It’s on my list of things to do; a line-by-line comparison. When I look at a side-by-side comparison of the old vs. the new rite, I feel cheated. If you want the vernacular, that’s one thing, but cut sections out and change the text? Makes no sense to me.

If an offering is being made then why is the priest facing towards us when he does it?

I will have to answer the rest latter, as I’ve got to get on with some things. You indulgence, please.

 

[At_Trent]

I have no intention of constant criticizing the new Mass. but i cannot help but notice all the innapropriations that i see everytime i go to Mass. every priest is doing something diferent. and it is not getting any better but worse. it is time for the EF Mass to come in. it is upsetting many people what is going with the OF at least in my area.

i just got this from another thread, it is beautifull. see what we are missing?

vimeo.com/8941838

If only each Catholic would watch that and embrace it, we would certainly be well on our way to recovery from the crisis.

 

[wisdomseeker]

If only each Catholic would watch that and embrace it, we would certainly be well on our way to recovery from the crisis.

Yes, if only the priests begin to change their ways, i think people would follow.
I just remember last sunday Mass, the priest walked into the Sanctuary from the back with the dog following him. like i said, i never know what we are going to see from one sunday to another.

 

[otjm]

Yes, if only the priests begin to change their ways, i think people would follow.
I just remember last sunday Mass, the priest walked into the Sanctuary from the back with the dog following him. like i said, i never know what we are going to see from one sunday to another.

I am sorry that you are in a parish that does not follow the rubrics. However, others are blessed with priests who do follow them. Gradually, over time, the priests who were innovative (in the 70’s and 80’s) are retiring or dying off; the priests who are being ordained (often referred to as the John Paul 2 priests) are following the rubrics (they simply don’t have the same issues the older priests had) and like most things in the Church, gradually things are getting better. Some areas are ahead of the curve, some behind, but in time the rebelliousness will change as it will simply die out.

The vast majority of people attend the OF; and it would certainly appear that in the future the great majority will if for no other reason than that even where the EF is said, it is not appearing to grow much.

As to the original post, it does not appear so much as an issue between the two forms as to what will correct the problems in the Church so much as it appears that at the base, the problems with moral law are a far greater source of the crisis in the Church. And it will only be by a return to morality which will cure that.

 

[angelic06]

I’m confused; what is the crisis you are referring to?

 

[otjm]

If only each Catholic would watch that and embrace it, we would certainly be well on our way to recovery from the crisis.

When people are enthusiastic about something, there seems to be one common repsonse, and that is that they cannot understand how everyone else is not likewise enthusiastic.

Without any comment or suggestion about the efficacy of the EF, comparisons between the EF and the OF, or any remarks about the two, it is my observation that there3 are a whole lot of people out there who simply are not going to be moved by the EF. There are a multitude of reasons for that, some of which we could all probably agree are not legitimate; and others which are legitimate, and still others which are simply a personal opinion, a “I like this” response.

Coupled with this is the presumption that because an individual may be aware of problems wtih the OF in their area, that those problems occur everywhere else. That simply is not the case. While I have observed OF Masses which did not follow the rubrics, I ahve attended far, far more Masses which did follow the rubrics, and in 5 other States than my own. The reality is that world wide the OF is about 99.6% of the Masses said in the Roman rite, and where the EF is being said, there simply does not appear to be significant growth of it. That is, it seems to be fulfilling a need, but the need doesn’t seem to be as wide as some would project.

 

[ProVobis]

My observations have been that many of the EF exist in those parishes where the OF has long peaked. One of the better examples is St. John Cantius, which was ready to close its doors in the 80’s before they decided to try the Latin Mass. Not only did they manage to regain attendance but now their OF is well attended as well. Outside the SSPX, I don’t know of a single EF which is celebrated in a newly built church. Let’s at least give some credit to the EF for the some of the success of the OF, if that makes sense.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

No, no, no, all you’re doing is engaging in distracting rhetoric. You have valid points, but you still haven’t answered the argument. Does God need the Mass in Latin? Why did the Church change from Greek? What is inherently WRONG with it in the vernacular, especially if YOU are reading it in the same vernacular from your missal?

And the Church still has all of the things you mention. You know, “traditinalists” keep harping on about how the OF is less than a sacrifice than the EF, but I listen to the Mass and I read it and it seems clear to me (as has been pointed out) that the OF is EVERY bit as much of a propitiatory sacrifice as the EF. How many times does the word have to be mentioned before the Sacrifice is effectual?

God wants it, we need it. I, by the way, mostly follow along with a TLM by reading in Latin. Sometimes I’ll look over to see what they’re saying in english, but I always love just following along in Latin.

And if the Novus Ordo is as much of a Sacrifice as the TLM, how about explaining to me why there is a table at an NO instead of an altar, why there are Eucharistic Ministers and CITH, and why the people are required to also drink the wine which resembles the blood? Doesn’t the Host contain the blood as well? It all seems more like some sort of meal to me. That’s what it is, a meal.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am sorry that you are in a parish that does not follow the rubrics. However, others are blessed with priests who do follow them. Gradually, over time, the priests who were innovative (in the 70’s and 80’s) are retiring or dying off; the priests who are being ordained (often referred to as the John Paul 2 priests) are following the rubrics (they simply don’t have the same issues the older priests had) and like most things in the Church, gradually things are getting better. Some areas are ahead of the curve, some behind, but in time the rebelliousness will change as it will simply die out.

The vast majority of people attend the OF; and it would certainly appear that in the future the great majority will if for no other reason than that even where the EF is said, it is not appearing to grow much.

As to the original post, it does not appear so much as an issue between the two forms as to what will correct the problems in the Church so much as it appears that at the base, the problems with moral law are a far greater source of the crisis in the Church. And it will only be by a return to morality which will cure that.

really! moral law is at the center?
to me it would seem that the Worship to God is the most important. from that all things will fall into place. so, it seems to me.

take for instance, this so called year for priests. have you notice any changes on priests?
i have not, in fact it seem to have gotten them worse. i dont want to get into details.

 

[otjm]

My observations have been that many of the EF exist in those parishes where the OF has long peaked. One of the better examples is St. John Cantius, which was ready to close its doors in the 80’s before they decided to try the Latin Mass. Not only did they manage to regain attendance but now their OF is well attended as well. Outside the SSPX, I don’t know of a single EF which is celebrated in a newly built church. Let’s at least give some credit to the EF for the some of the success of the OF, if that makes sense.

I would not be against giving that credit in the least. And yes, it makes perfect sense.

 

[otjm]

really! moral law is at the center?
to me it would seem that the Worship to God is the most important. from that all things will fall into place. so, it seems to me.

take for instance, this so called year for priests. have you notice any changes on priests?
i have not, in fact it seem to have gotten them worse. i dont want to get into details.

Moral law is at the center of the problems the Church has been having. Why? Because at the center of it all is sin. Dissenting theologians? I can understand someone who gets off down the rabbit hole, but when called on it, it is Pride that gets in the way of acknowledging error.

People not coming to Mass? And what is the leading issue? Contrary to opinions, it is not the difference between the EF and the OF; after getting past the biggest one (lack of catechesis), the next biggest issue is sexual activity outside of marriage, which in turn is driven by the attitudes favoring ABC. Let’s try Lust for that one.

And fast on those heels is materialism, which has grown exponentially since the 40’s when we were at war and everyone took the short end of the economic stick. Materialism has grown by leaps and bounds - let’s try Greed and Envy.

Worship of God is most important. Yes; but the issue is the crisis the Church is in, and that crisis is best demonstrated by the fall-off in attendance ver the last 50+ years (peak attendance was before Vatican 2, in 1957) and has averaged about 1% per year. So the crisis is the falling away of so many from Church practice; and that is not due to the change in the Mass. It started a decade or more before we were dealing with the change in the Mass, and continued slowly but inexorably since then.

Changing the form of the Mass will not get the people back into the Church. Most of the ones who ahve fallen away ahve never even seen the EF; they did not leave because of the OF. They left because their lifestyle choices were in major conflict with the Church, no matter what Mass for one talks about.

Let me answer you another way: if it were about the Mass, then where the OF is said reverently, problems should be solved. They are not. And where the EF is said, if the EF were the answer, people should be returning in droves. They are not. QED

 

[otjm]

And if the Novus Ordo is as much of a Sacrifice as the TLM, how about explaining to me why there is a table at an NO instead of an altar,

And why do you think the table is not an altar? Ours is.

why there are Eucharistic Ministers and CITH,

Because Rome has decided that is permissible, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Mass as Sacrifice. And by the way, the evidence is the early Church received in the hand, and the implication is that is how Christ set up reception of the Eucharist, so what is your problem with that? What Christ apparently set up isn’t good enough for you?

and why the people are required to also drink the wine which resembles the blood? Doesn’t the Host contain the blood as well? It all seems more like some sort of meal to me. That’s what it is, a meal.

Again, maybe you need to go read the Gospel accounts of how Christ set up the Eucharist. He set it up with both the Host and the Cup. And that is how St Paul tells us people received, and how people received for centuries. Are you suggesting Christ was wrong? Furthermore, no one is required to receive from the Cup.

Of course if you read Scripture you would note that the Eucharist is both a sacrifice and a sacred meal. It is not either/or; it is both/and. A point you seem to miss.

But then, what are a few facts between friends, eh?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

God wants it, we need it. I, by the way, mostly follow along with a TLM by reading in Latin. Sometimes I’ll look over to see what they’re saying in english, but I always love just following along in Latin.

And if the Novus Ordo is as much of a Sacrifice as the TLM, how about explaining to me why there is a table at an NO instead of an altar, why there are Eucharistic Ministers and CITH, and why the people are required to also drink the wine which resembles the blood? Doesn’t the Host contain the blood as well? It all seems more like some sort of meal to me. That’s what it is, a meal.

It is an ALTAR, whether you believe it or not, and there is no such thing as an NO parish,we are ONE HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH, PRACTICING THE ROMAN RITE, WHICH HAS TWO VALID FORMS THE OF AND EF PLEASE, ENOUGH OF THIS ALREADY!!:banghead:

Every Mass I have ever be too has a Eucharistic Minister, all the time- THE PRIEST, what you are talking about is an EXTRAORDINARY MINISTER OF HOLY COMMUNION,
and yes, while this practice is often times abused in the fact of too many EMHC’sare sometimes used, it is still a practice that is allowed by the Church. (And don’t bother asking which one, there is only ONE, and BXVI is her Supreme Pontiff!)

CITH is a valid option! COTT ***CANNOT BE DENIED!!! ***

And finally, ***NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO RECEIVE THE PRECIOUS BLOOD!! IT IS OPTIONAL!!! *** Again the Church (see above) in her wisdom, has said that offering the Eucharist under both species is valid. It does not change the fact that Jesus is FULLY PRESENT IN THE BREAD ALONE.
You are entitled to your opinions, Spiritus Sanctus, as mis-informed as they are. What you should not do is spread misconceptions, half-truths and outright lies. It makes ALL of us look bad!

 

[ProVobis]

COTT CANNOT BE DENIED!!!

Unfortunately it still is, if you’ll accept youtube as evidence.

 

[otjm]

of course it is not wide spread. what do you expect? it has been suppressed for so long. they could not be ordained. many dont even know about it. many just gave up. many just like the entertainment they have today. we live in a world where people likes to be entertained by each other. that is the age we live in today. just think of how many priests stoping wearing their habits, it is because it is not entertaining as the regular clothes of our modern times. entertainment is a big business. many priests got envolved in this business too. they want to look goo, clean cut, and so forth. these are ones bringing the big money. do you ever wonder why?

No, I don’t wonder, since I watched it all occur and saw the reasons as they were “lived out”.

Again, most of your comment is non-responsive to my post. That is not to say is is a bad comment (it isn’t); but re-read my post. I am not taking a position for or against the EF (I grew up on it, and suspect that in the few years that I was an altar server, I attended more Masses than many of the posters herein). I am simply commenting as an observer.