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4Him
Guest
Yep, they sure did… in remembrance… many times. But it was normal bread, no substance of Jesus…
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Justin_Mary
Guest
Right. We are flesh. Human beings are Spirit & flesh. We must be careful not to deny our own humanity as we recognize Jesus’ humanity.
& no, my reference to that passage had no more to do with the Eucharist than your reference to that passage, which had nothing to do with the Eucharist.
Everything we Catholics do, we believe we are doing in spirit & truth. Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Marriage, Holy Orders, Annointing of the Sick, & Penance. All done in spirit & truth.
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4Him
Guest
So the question was: Can you show why you think there is a contextual correlation between John 6, “flesh is of no avail” and the crucifixion…? Or what was the author’s meaning of each…?
Your last three replies would have been a great opportunity to answer those questions…
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4Him
Guest
OK, can you show me how you know that…? Scripture reference in context, exegesis, other source.??4Him:
You keep repeating this, but it still doesn’t mean what you claim it means.
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hope
Guest
I answer you just don’t like the answer now how about answering just one of mine.
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hope
Guest
You ignore the answers
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hope
Guest
Where does it say that it was just a remembrance?
It wasn’t just ordinary bread.
But Jesus said otherwise.
Paul said otherwise
It wasn’t just ordinary bread.
But Jesus said otherwise.
Paul said otherwise
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Pattylt
Guest
I apologize if I’m repeating others as I just found this thread and will catch up later…
If you have ever been to an Orthodox Jewish service, you will see elements of the Mass. the overall rhythm, the reading of specific scriptures on specific days, singing and chant, reader responses, etc. while Jews don’t kneel, they definitely bow and sway while saying specific prayers.
Because Christianity came from Judaism this makes perfect sense…people tend to continue the way they worship…it’s what they consider worshipping as being! if Christianity had developed out of Hinduism, the Mass would resemble their worship style instead of Judaism.
I’m not sure about other high church denominations but Baptist’s and many others don’t follow a calendar in their worshipping style. This would have been very foreign to Jews and early Christians…the entire year follows a pattern and calendar. Though the Mass developed its own prayers and patterns obviously developed around their new faith, the base of it is still very Jewish.
I believe the Didache also describes Mass and hasn’t changed much from what I understand, either. Thanks.
If you have ever been to an Orthodox Jewish service, you will see elements of the Mass. the overall rhythm, the reading of specific scriptures on specific days, singing and chant, reader responses, etc. while Jews don’t kneel, they definitely bow and sway while saying specific prayers.
Because Christianity came from Judaism this makes perfect sense…people tend to continue the way they worship…it’s what they consider worshipping as being! if Christianity had developed out of Hinduism, the Mass would resemble their worship style instead of Judaism.
I’m not sure about other high church denominations but Baptist’s and many others don’t follow a calendar in their worshipping style. This would have been very foreign to Jews and early Christians…the entire year follows a pattern and calendar. Though the Mass developed its own prayers and patterns obviously developed around their new faith, the base of it is still very Jewish.
I believe the Didache also describes Mass and hasn’t changed much from what I understand, either. Thanks.
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4Him
Guest
From two Christian Theologians.4Him:
You keep repeating this, but it still doesn’t mean what you claim it means
“These verses constitute the reaction of Jesus’ disciples to His sermon on the “bread of life.” As with the crowds’ response in Jerusalem and in Galilee (chap. [6], the response of many of His disciples was unbelief and rejection of Him. John lists two groups and their reactions: 1) the false disciples’ reaction of unbelief (vv. [60–66], and 2) the true disciples’ reaction of belief (vv. [67–71]. After this sermon, only a small nucleus of disciples remained (v. [67].”
“[6:64] Jesus knew. Reminiscent of John’ words in [2:23–25] Jesus knew the hearts of men, including those disciples who followed Him. He supernaturally knew that many did not believe in Him as Messiah and Son of God so He did not entrust Himself to them. These false disciples were simply attracted to the physical phenomena (e.g., miracles and food), and failed to understand the true significance of Jesus’ teaching (v. [61].”
"John He gives them a general key to this and all such parabolical discourses, teaching them that they are to be understood spiritually, and not after a corporal and carnal manner: It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing, [v. 63]. As it is in the natural body, the animal spirits quicken and enliven it, and without these the most nourishing food would profit nothing (what would the body be the better for bread, if it were not quickened and animated by the spirit), so it is with the soul.
My two sources: Dr. John Mac Garther and Dr. Dr. Vernon McGee
I’ll await your research, or anyone’s, that it means something different…
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hope
Guest
You have already been given an answer just reread.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
That sounds a lot like the Gnostic heresies.
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4Him
Guest
And I always welcome and appreciate unsubstantiated opinions, without any research.
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hope
Guest
what a snide remark. Everything that was posted was backed up. Like I said reread. I think you missed a lot or just ignored that which you could not dispute.
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4Him
Guest
Thanks, I already did.
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EndTimes
Guest
As has been shown - it’s been a combo of Scriptures and Apostolic Tradition
which connects in part with the existing religious practices of Jesus’ time…
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MarkInOregon
Guest
You do realize that’s not an answer to the question don’t you? Are you actually interested in dialogue? Perhaps you should read “Where We Got The Bible” by Rt. Rev. Henry G. Graham. Perhaps you should look some of the materials others have referenced like the Didache and the writings of Justin Martyr. Our beliefs are perfectly in keeping with holy Scripture and our Mass bears a striking similarity to the Mass as it was celebrated in 165 AD. The Bible was not written as a guide to tell Christians how to celebrate the Lords day. Are you aware that from early on, bread from the community’s celebration of the Eucharist was sent to members who couldn’t be present. It was sent through deacons & they had special containers for its transport—that should tell you something.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
Do you not understand what you are told or are you purposely ignoring it in order to keep repeating your talking points? Around 110 AD Bishop St Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple & a co-worker of the Apostle John, wrote to the Smyrnaeans “Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their are to the mind of God…They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,”. To the Romans he wrote “I have no taste for corruptible food not for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, which is the Flesh of Jesus Christ , who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood, which is love incorruptible.” I’m going to put more stock in someone taught by the Apostle John than I am those who come centuries later and teach something new.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
What is you support for this “normal bread” idea? It isn’t Scripture or the beliefs of the earliest Christians. Virtually all Christians accepted the doctrine of the Real Presence until the Reformation. Look at the churches that broke away from the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation —the Coptic (5th century), Armenian (5th century), Orthodox (11th century)—they all still believe in the Real Presence. Doesn’t that tell you anything? When you reject the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist you are departing from the clear evidence in Scripture and from 1500 years of virtually unanimous Christian teaching—that should give you pause.
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