What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

[MarkInOregon]

The word spirit is nowhere used in the Bible to mean symbolic. The spiritual is every bit as real as the material. In verse 63, Jesus is contrasting the natural or carnal man (the flesh) with the spiritual or faith-filled man. 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:4 offers a good explanation of what Jesus means by “the flesh”. Also notice that Jesus says “my flesh” when discussing the Eucharist. He says “the flesh” when referring to carnal man who will not believe anything beyond his senses and reason.
Why did Jesus let them leave—why didn’t he correct their misunderstanding? Could it be they didn’t misunderstand that they simply were of the flesh and couldn’t believe anything beyond their senses and reason? As opposed to those of the spirit who were able to believe Jesus because of the grace which elevates their thoughts? cf Rom 8:1-13.

 

[Todd_Easton]

What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

Jude mentions certain “ungodly persons” (Jude 4), “blemishes on your [Christian] love feasts” (12), who “reject authority” (8) and “perish in Korah’s rebellion.” (11). Since Korah’s rebellion (Numbers 16) had to do with the usurpation by other men of the ministry of offering material sacrifices (i.e., priesthood) given by God alone to Aaron and his descendants, I think, by this comparison to Korah’s rebellion, Jude is implying that Christians likewise have priests who alone are authorized to offer certain material sacrifices, namely, the broken bread and blessed cup (of wine) of the Eucharist, at their love feasts. This would seem to be in accord with what St Ignatius of Antioch said, in about the year 110:

Take heed, then, to have but one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to [show forth ] the unity of His blood; one altar; as there is one bishop, along with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants: that so, whatsoever you do, you may do it according to [the will of] God. (Epistle to the Philadelphians, chapter 4)

Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. … It is not lawful without the bishop … to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. (Epistle to Smynaeans, chapter 8)

With respect to your use of the word “spirit” in John 6:63 (“The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”) to suggest a metaphorical understanding of what Jesus had earlier said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, I would offer that “spirit,” in this case, means “spiritual” in the sense used by St Paul in 1 Cor 2:13–3:3, i.e., a truth that is “spiritually discerned.” This would be in accord with what he said in 1 Cor 11:29, “For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.” Now, just because something is spiritually discerned doesn’t mean that it is not real and substantial; it just means that its true nature is not perceived by the eyes of the flesh but by the eyes of faith. Consider that on the road to Emmaus, the risen Jesus appeared to two of his disciples, walking and talking with them, yet for quite some time “their eyes were kept from recognizing him.” (Luke 24:16)

 

[whatistrue]

I’ll await your research, or anyone’s, that it means something different…

Which has been provided more than once by more than one person. You simply either don’t accept or outright ignore it though. As for me, I will listen to the Church that Jesus Himself founded, which selected the Scriptures that we know as the New Testament, and which has the authority to interpret them.

 

[4Him]

4Him:

What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

As has been shown - it’s been a combo of Scriptures and Apostolic Tradition
which connects in part with the existing religious practices of Jesus’ time…

Thanks, but just curious, did God’s church, in the book of Acts, or NT, lose their salvation if they missed a service…?

 

[4Him]

The Bible was not written as a guide to tell Christians how to celebrate the Lords day.

Let’s have a dialogue… the Bible tells us how we can know we are saved (sealed by the Spirit)… but in Catholicism, you can lose your salvation by missing one Mass…?

 

[4Him]

I’m going to put more stock in someone taught by the Apostle John than I am those who come centuries later and teach something new.

I think John would have wanted all who read his words (Words of the Holy Spirit) to be read them in context with the entire bible, or as the Spirit intended. As he said, “worship in Spirit and Truth”…

 

[Justin_Mary]

Thanks, but just curious, did God’s church, in the book of Acts, or NT, lose their salvation if they missed a service…?

Maybe. Maybe not. What point are you trying to make?

The Church has the authority to obligate Sunday Mass.

 

[4Him]

Which has been provided more than once by more than one person. You simply either don’t accept or outright ignore it though. As for me, I will listen to the Church that Jesus Himself founded, which selected the Scriptures that we know as the New Testament, and which has the authority to interpret them.

Thanks for your thoughts. I’ll let Paul answer:
Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you , let them be under God’s curse ! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted (past tense), let them be under God’s curse!

 

[Todd_Easton]

Here is the exact language: Vs. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
Vs. 18 - the people of Israel are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar
Vs. 20 - I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.
Vs. 21 - You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
In context: Eating meat sacrificed to pagan idols disturbed some new Christians… this was addressing idolatry.

Why did you highlight those particular words in the above verses of 1 Cor 10 with a bold font?

It seems that you might have failed to understand the nature of St Paul’s questions. As he does elsewhere in that and in his other letters, Paul was asking rhetorical questions. When in verse 16 he asked, “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” he was, by means of rhetorical questions, simply emphasizing that the cup of blessing that we bless is indeed a participation in the blood of Christ and the bread that we break is indeed a participation in the body of Christ. We know this from all the other associations of the bread and the cup with the body and blood of Christ. (See Last Supper narratives of Matthew, Mark, and Luke and 1 Cor 11:23-29.)

Similarly, when in verse 18 he asked, “Consider the practice of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?” he was, by means of a rhetorical question, simply emphasizing that, according to the practice of Israel, those who eat the sacrifices are indeed partners in the altar. We know this from the many sacrifices of Israel in which the people ate of the sacrifices, such as the Paschal lamb. (See Deuteronomy 16)

The point I was trying to make was that mentioning the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16, 21) in his discussion of the sacrificial meals of Israel and of pagans, suggests that the Eucharist itself is also a sacrificial meal, i.e., food that is offered in sacrificed to the Lord and then eaten. And, if it is offered in sacrifice, then that implies that Christians have priests or “minister of Christ Jesus … in the priestly service of the gospel of God” (Romans 15:16), and altars of sacrifice (Hebrews 13:10), just like Israel and the pagans had for their sacrifices.

And, I agree with you that 1 Cor 10:14-33 is addressing idolatry, the worship of idols, and in particular the worship of idols through the eating of food offered in sacrifice to idols, a continuation of what he said in 1 Cor 8.

 

[4Him]

Maybe. Maybe not. What point are you trying to make?

The Church has the authority to obligation Sunday Mass.

Help me understand then, Why didn’t the church in the book of Acts or NT, tell it’s members that they’d lose their salvation if they missed a service…?

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard (past tense) the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed , you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession. Our salvation is “sealed” and “guaranteed” by the Holy Spirit… And our only participation is genuinely accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior…

 

[whatistrue]

Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ

I implore you to really think about that passage with an open mind. I am muting this thread now so as to not be a distraction or to be distracted myself.

 

[Vico]

Justin_Mary:

Maybe. Maybe not. What point are you trying to make?

The Church has the authority to obligation Sunday Mass.

Help me understand then, Why didn’t the church in the book of Acts or NT, tell it’s members that they’d lose their salvation if they missed a service…?

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard (past tense) the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed , you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession. Our salvation is “sealed” and “guaranteed” by the Holy Spirit… And our only participation is genuinely accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior…

It is not guaranteed except at the point of final repentance. Some baptized individuals fall into grave sins afterwards and do not repent of them.

Catechism

1864 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."136 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.

136 Mt 12:31; cf. Mk 3:29; Lk 12:10.
137 Cf. John Paul II, DeV 46.

 

[4Him]

And, if it is offered in sacrifice, then that implies that Christians have priests or “minister of Christ Jesus … in the priestly service of the gospel of God” (Romans 15:16), and altars of sacrifice (Hebrews 13:10), just like Israel and the pagans had for their sacrifices.

Thanks, and very good thoughts.

The bold came from my course notes from about 20 years ago. But thanks for sharing, I can remove them in future replies.

Can you explain below how you know what is “implied” (above), given that all believers are a “royal priesthood”, 1 Peter 2:9, and the NT explains that a “sacrifice” is now how we live, in remembrance of what Christ did for us… Rom 12:1.

 

[4Him]

I implore you to really think about that passage with an open mind. I am muting this thread now so as to not be a distraction or to be distracted myself.

I am very comfortable what Paul shared… and thanks for your invested time.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Our salvation is “sealed” and “guaranteed” by the Holy Spirit… And our only participation is genuinely accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior…

At the very least it would help if you would use paragraphs to separate your words from quoted scripture.

Again I ask what is your point. What exactly are you trying to say? That baptism isn’t necessary? That once saved always saved? That all you have to do is believe?

In the simple sense, yes… all you have to do is believe. But in the practical sense our thoughts & actions are based on our beliefs.

I try to got Mass several times a week, especially on Sunday when the faithful gather to celebrate Our Lords triumph over death, because I believe it pleases Our Father.

I drive 5 mph over the speed limit because I believe the police have more important things to worry about.

I go to the reconciliation & perform penance because I believe it conforms me to Christ.

 

[4Him]

It is not guaranteed except at the point of final repentance. Some baptized individuals fall into grave sins afterwards and do not repent of them.

Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, in the “confidence of eternal life”, which God, who “does not lie, promised before the beginning of time”.

The only qualifier is our genuine faith in Jesus Christ… The theme of Romans, Galation’s, Ephesians and remaining NT.
I think the poignant question is: what does the bible say about sanctification?

 

[Justin_Mary]

Can you explain below how you know what is “implied” (above), given that all believers are a “royal priesthood”, 1 Peter 2:9, and the NT explains that a “sacrifice” is now how we live, in remembrance of what Christ did for us… Rom 12:1.

The Jewish Tradition helps us understand this. There were many sacrifices offered in the Old Testament. Some by the priestly family, some by the priesthood of the faithful.

That’s not to say one replaced the other. Sacrifice of the common priesthood was required as well as sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood.

 

[4Him]

Again I ask what is your point. What exactly are you trying to say? That baptism isn’t necessary? That once saved always saved? That all you have to do is believe?

My point: Why do my brothers and sisters in Catholicism believe they can lose there salvation by missing a Mass, when it’s not scriptural or God’s intention?

And thanks for the suggestion of separating scripture… great idea…!

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life".

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life . He does not come into judgment , but has passed from death to life

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you.

 

[4Him]

The Jewish Tradition helps us understand this. There were many sacrifices offered in the Old Testament. Some by the priestly family, some by the priesthood of the faithful.

That’s not to say one replaced the other. Sacrifice of the common priesthood was required as well as sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

It is not guaranteed except at the point of final repentance. Some baptized individuals fall into grave sins afterwards and do not repent of them.

Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, in the “confidence of eternal life”, which God, who “does not lie, promised before the beginning of time”.

The only qualifier is our genuine faith in Jesus Christ… The theme of Romans, Galation’s, Ephesians and remaining NT.
I think the poignant question is: what does the bible say about sanctification?

Abstain from immorality. Spoken to the newly converted from paganism.

1 Thessalonians 4

3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; 6 that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we solemnly forewarned you. 7 For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.