What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

[Justin_Mary]

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Right. I’m not saying the old Covenant is in force. Only that the God of the NT is the same as the God of the OT. It helps us to understand the Old to fully appreciate the New. Which is why, I believe Paul refers so often to the Old to explain the New.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Can you explain below how you know what is “implied” (above), given that all believers are a “royal priesthood”, 1 Peter 2:9

I think I addressed this question in a previous post where I talked about Jude’s mention of Korah’s rebellion.

 

[Todd_Easton]

A congregant would have to discount holy scripture… i.e… Heb 9:28 “Jesus will only appear a second time ”. Luke 13: 35 - You will not see me again until the day of the Lord ." Not everyday in a Mass.

With respect to Jesus not appearing again until the day of the Lord, I would offer that that refers to a manifest appearance such that everyone is aware of it. Since Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist is hidden under the appearance of bread and wine and only spiritually discerned and not manifest to all, it doesn’t count, just like Jesus’ appearances to Stephen (Acts 7:55) and Saul (Acts 9:3-7, 17) don’t count.

 

[4Him]

Abstain from immorality. Spoken to the newly converted from paganism.

1 Thessalonians 4

And you’ll find that it also applies to all Christians. Now, does scripture say you can lose your salvation during the sanctification process…?

 

[4Him]

I think I addressed this question in a previous post where I talked about Jude’s mention of Korah’s rebellion.

Thanks, and your thoughts on 1 Peter 2:9…?

 

[MarkInOregon]

And I would suggest that is something you are not doing. You’ve been given context. You’ve been given suggested resources to review from the earliest Christians. You’ve ignored everything presented to you and instead just repeat your claims. I can only conclude that you are not here to seek understanding or in search of the truth in honest dialogue.

 

[4Him]

I would offer that that refers to a manifest appearance such that everyone is aware of it.

Ok, how do you know that…?

Eucharist is hidden under the appearance of bread and wine and only spiritually discerned and not manifest to all, it doesn’t count, just like Jesus’ appearances to Stephen (Acts 7:55) and Saul (Acts 9:3-7, 17) don’t count.

Doesn’t count…?? The Council of Trent, 13th Session, Canon I stated: “(the Eucharist) is truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ .

Doesn’t count…?? Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

 

[4Him]

Right. I’m not saying the old Covenant is in force. Only that the God of the NT is the same as the God of the OT. It helps us to understand the Old to fully appreciate the New. Which is why, I believe Paul refers so often to the Old to explain the New

Absolutely…!!!

 

[Todd_Easton]

Thanks, and your thoughts on 1 Peter 2:9…?

In the Old Testament, the Lord similarly referred to the people of Israel as “a kingdom of priests” in Exodus 19:6 but that didn’t exclude Aaron and his descendant from being chosen from among them to offer certain specific kinds of sacrifices.

 

[4Him]

And I would suggest that is something you are not doing. You’ve been given context. You’ve been given suggested resources to review from the earliest Christians. You’ve ignored everything presented to you and instead just repeat your claims. I can only conclude that you are not here to seek understanding or in search of the truth in honest dialogue.

OK… thanks for your thoughts…

 

[4Him]

In the Old Testament, the Lord similarly referred to the people of Israel as “a kingdom of priests” in Exodus 19:6 but that didn’t exclude Aaron and his descendant from being chosen from among them to offer certain specific kinds of sacrifices.

So, who was Peter referring to in 2:9…?

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Abstain from immorality. Spoken to the newly converted from paganism.

1 Thessalonians 4

And you’ll find that it also applies to all Christians. Now, does scripture say you can lose your salvation during the sanctification process…?

The first sanctification is at baptism. The growth after than is called the second sanctification and the third sanctification takes place entering heaven. There is a real change in the soul with sanctification.

Yes the sanctification can be lost. Hebrews 6:4-8

 

[MarkInOregon]

This has been addressed more than once but you ignore the alternate and I would say correct understanding of the verses which is more in keeping with the context of the Scripture as a whole and with the beliefs and practices of the earliest Christians.

 

[Todd_Easton]

So, who was Peter referring to in 2:9…?

Peter was referring to Christians in general as a royal priesthood. However, like in the Old Testament where the people of Israel were similarly called a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6) and yet there was a subgroup of them, namely, Aaron and his descendants, who was chosen to exclusively offer certain specific sacrifices, Christians being “a royal priesthood” doesn’t exclude there being a subgroup of Christians who are chosen to exclusively offer certain specific sacrifices, namely, the Eucharist.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Doesn’t count…??

Rather than saying “don’t count,” I should probably have said, “don’t contradict the Scriptures you quoted.” I’m sorry for any confusion my poor choice of words may have caused.

My point being that, if Jesus’ post-ascension appearances to Stephen and to Saul don’t contradict the Scriptures that you quoted that say Jesus will not appear again a second time until the Day of the Lord, presumably because in those appearances to Stephen and Saul he was not manifest to all, then neither does Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist, hidden under the appearance of bread and wine, contradict those Scriptures because his presence in the Eucharist is similarly not manifest to all.

 

[MarkInOregon]

That’s a more complicated question and would involve a discussion on mortal sin —which seems like a topic for another thread. Let’s just say it’s not as black and white as you make it sound. The Church does have the authority to bind its members an authority given to it by Christ—that you will find in the New Testament. I will also posit that you seem to be viewing the New Testament as something that it was not meant to be. Would you mind telling us how you worship?

 

[4Him]

The first sanctification is at baptism. The growth after than is called the second sanctification and the third sanctification takes place entering heaven. There is a real change in the soul with sanctification.

Yes the sanctification can be lost. Hebrews 6:4-8

OK, sanctification does begin at our conversion John 1:12, and that is biblical. But I’m guessing that you’re referring to a water baptism.

Heb 6: 4-8 is actually saying that we can’t loose something we never had to begin with. Here are the exact words:
Heb 6: 4-8 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

And better explained in 1 John:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[EndTimes]

Thanks, but just curious, did God’s church, in the book of Acts, or NT, lose their salvation if they missed a service…?

Never repented for 3 - Condition Mortal Sins - connect with Losing Salvation?

As does having no love for others - even in Purgatory?

Church - It would be interesting how that applies to say Jews // Jesus - on Sabbaths?
And if somehow connected - how that taken for granted worshipping time was simply not put in ?

And Not everything that occurred found its way into the Gospel…

What was allowed/disallowed after the books of the Bible were Written - are not necessarily invalid.

But I know where you’re coming from I think.

 

[PaxChristi]

Christ explains his words are literal.
John 6:55 My flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink (Holman Christians Standard Bible)

also translated as “My flesh is food indeed, and my drink indeed” in KJV or “My flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” in ESV

It’s literal, deal with it.

 

[4Him]

because in those appearances to Stephen and Saul he was not manifest to all, then neither does Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist, hidden under the appearance of bread and wine, contradict those Scriptures because his presence in the Eucharist is similarly not manifest to all.

Thanks, I now see your reasoning.
So, because Jesus scripturally had manifestation appearances, it would then mean he could be “substantively” in the communion host…?
Because of all the scripture I previously shared that explained “This is My Body” was figurative, just as He is not a real vine, a water stream, light bulb, His house is not a mustard seed… etc… and eating anothers flesh is just plain cannibalism… and we also knew Jesus spoke with metaphor’s, aphorisms and hyperbole. So the answer, if you take scripture literally, it has to agree with the broad context throughout scripture… Or test scripture, as the Bereans did in Acts 17.