What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

[4Him]

The Church does have the authority to bind its members an authority given to it by Christ—that you will find in the New Testament. I will also posit that you seem to be viewing the New Testament as something that it was not meant to be. Would you mind telling us how you worship?

You’re certainly allowed that opinion…

Regarding your mention of authority to bind… this authority was given to all believers.

Luke 17:3 - So watch yourselves. "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
Matt 18:15 - "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
Col 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

And the reminder that Christianity is not a religion… it’s a relationship…

Regarding my worship… it’s mostly in prayer, then reading scripture, being in fellowship, and then serving Him. Great question…!

 

[MrZoom]

And the reminder that Christianity is not a religion… it’s a relationship…

What is your definition of “religion”?

 

[4Him]

And Not everything that occurred found its way into the Gospel…

What was allowed/disallowed after the books of the Bible were Written - are not necessarily invalid.

But I know where you’re coming from I think.

So the question, is what was written down in scripture were adequate and sufficient for our salvation…?

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you”
John 8: 31-32 “To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “ If you hold to my teaching , you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth”
1 Corinthians 4:6–7 “Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “ Do not go beyond what is written”
2 Timothy 3:15-17 - “and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Notice these are all past tense…

Don’t think too hard…

 

[MrZoom]

4Him:

And the reminder that Christianity is not a religion… it’s a relationship…

What is your definition of “religion”?

It’s long been a source of irritation to me that some Christians treat “religion” like a dirty word. It is not, according to St. James.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

 

[4Him]

4Him:

And the reminder that Christianity is not a religion… it’s a relationship…

What is your definition of “religion”?

Great question…!
Most religion, theistic or otherwise, is man-centered. Any relationship with their God is based on man’s works. A theistic religion, such as Judaism or Islam, holds to the belief in a supreme God or gods; while non-theistic religions, such as Buddhism and Hinduism, focus on metaphysical thought patterns and spiritual “energies.” But most religions are similar in that they are built upon the concept that man can reach a higher power or state of being through his own efforts. In most religions, man is the aggressor and the deity is the beneficiary of man’s efforts, sacrifices, or good deeds. Paradise, nirvana, or some higher state of being is man’s reward for his strict adherence to whatever tenets that religion prescribes.
In that regard, Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship that God has established with His children. In Christianity, God is the aggressor and man is the beneficiary, Romans 8:3

 

[4Him]

It’s long been a source of irritation to me that some Christians treat “religion” like a dirty word. It is not, according to St. James.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

Amen… I actually like your response, and I agree…!
It really comes down to… is it about our accomplishments, or His achievements… and we certainly glorify Him in serving the “least” of His, and all those who are struggling… and He gets all the glory…!!!

 

[MrZoom]

But most religions are similar in that they are built upon the concept that man can reach a higher power or state of being through his own efforts.

I figured your answer would be along these lines. I’ve heard similar sentiments before, when I was involved with Campus Crusade for Christ in the '90s. They would say, “religion is man trying to reach God, Christianity is God reaching down to man”, or something similar.

I now reject this definition. For one, there is St. James’ definition of true religion, which I posted above, and will repeat:

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

I also like a definition of faith and religion that one of my former pastors gave.

FAITH is our relationship with God.
RELIGION is our outward expression of that faith.

So, in this scheme, Christianity is BOTH a religion AND a relationship.

 

[humbleseeker]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you”

Why didn’t you use the complete text for that passage? It ends with, “either by word of mouth or by letter.”

 

[MarkInOregon]

The authority given to the apostles and to Peter specifically is fundamentally different from what you cite. Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth. He established his Church on earth—a visible Church. I would suggest listening to Religionless Spirituality Why We Need the Church by Dr Tim Gray. It’s available on Formed and I don’t know if you can find it on YouTube.

 

[Vico]

…

It does not matter if it is conversion or water baptism, but the point where sanctifying grace changes the soul. Catechumens can be baptized by desire.

They fall away, as stated by St. Paul “they are crucifying the Son of God”. There is a real change in the soul and that state is later lost.

 

[4Him]

So, in this scheme, Christianity is BOTH a religion AND a relationship.

Thanks…
I tend not to get rapped up in a name… our mission and goal is made clear in scripture…

Also, I have a very high regard for Campus Crusade…!!

 

[4Him]

4Him:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you”

Why didn’t you use the complete text for that passage? It ends with, “either by word of mouth or by letter.”

All revelation from God, whether oral or written, has to align with the context of scripture… You’ve heard this before… God does not contradict Himself…

 

[humbleseeker]

You didn’t answer why you proof texted that particular passage.

 

[4Him]

It does not matter if it is conversion or water baptism, but the point where sanctifying grace changes the soul. Catechumens can be baptized by desire.

They fall away, as stated by St. Paul “they are crucifying the Son of God”. There is a real change in the soul and that state is later lost.

I would agree, as long as they understand the conversion, through the Holy Spirit, changes from one character, type, or purpose to another, from a slave of sin, to being born again in Christ… Then having an identity in Christ, and heir to the kingdom, a child of God…

 

[4Him]

You didn’t answer why you proof texted that particular passage.

It was a copy and paste from my notes… but as last said, it all has to align with God’s Will revelation, whether oral, written or in a musical composition…

 

[humbleseeker]

So the question, is what was written down in scripture were adequate and sufficient for our salvation…?

It also undermines the premise that only scripture is sufficient for salvation.

 

[Limoncello4021]

Yes, this is exactly what I see the OP doing as well. I said it about 50 comments above. This thread goes on and on, with 4Him not wanting to learn (this is obvious from tone and comments) but just repeating his claims. The OP must just enjoy going in circles: lots of time on his hands?

 

[Todd_Easton]

So, because Jesus scripturally had manifestation appearances, it would then mean he could be “substantively” in the communion host…?

I don’t see why not. In life, Jesus defied the ordinary laws of physics by walking no water, who knows what he is now capable of now that he is risen and glorified.

Because of all the scripture I previously shared that explained “This is My Body” was figurative…

Just because Jesus sometimes used figurative language doesn’t mean that everything he said was figurative. The notion that when Jesus took bread and said, This is my body, he had to be speaking figuratively is absurd. After all, we are talking about someone (Jesus) who had previously multiplied substances, like the loaves and fishes, and changed one substance into another, like the water he changed into wine, not to mention creating substances out of nothing, like the entire universe.

It is my understanding that the best way to interpret the Bible is to start with the literal interpretation and only move on to other interpretations when the literal interpretation is impossible. Since Jesus had previously changed one substance into another (water into wine), changing bread and wine into his body and blood is clearly not impossible. As to the charge of cannibalism, didn’t Jesus declare all foods clean? (Mark 7:19) Anyway, his glorified, resurrected body is now incorruptible (1 Cor 15:42), immune to all suffering and death (Romans 6:9) and so, unlike ordinary cannibalism which harms or otherwise diminishes the body of the one being cannibalized, eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood does him absolutely no harm. Note: In his 1968 Apostolic Letter, Credo of the People of God (26), Pope Paul VI said, concerning transubstantiation: “The unique and indivisible existence of the Lord glorious in heaven is not multiplied, but is rendered present by the sacrament in the many places on earth where Mass is celebrated.” I could be wrong but I take this to mean that the space occupied by the appearance of bread and wine after consecration becomes an opening in space that is zero distance to wherever the glorified Jesus is now in heaven, if that makes sense.

 

[hope]

Just because Jesus sometimes used figurative language doesn’t mean that everything he said was figurative.

It has been pointed out to him more than once that when Jesus said to Eat is Body and Drink His Blood it was prefaced with Amen, Amen.
In other translations it is translated as “Truly I tell You” that is what Amen means. He however ignores this and goes back to is Jesus a vine. As you have pointed out, not everything Jesus said was figurative. His disciples walked away from Him because of this. They are still walking away from Him today.

 

[4Him]

It also undermines the premise that only scripture is sufficient for salvation

So, removing opinions… it comes down to what God explained is the path to go back home… what was that…?