What is the origin of the Mass? Is it explained in Scripture?

[4Him]

I don’t see why not. In life, Jesus defied the ordinary laws of physics by walking no water, who knows what he is now capable of now that he is risen and glorified.

So, it seems humanly logical… I get that… But did God intend it… explain it… support the idea in parallel passages…?

It is my understanding that the best way to interpret the Bible is to start with the literal interpretation and only move on to other interpretations when the literal interpretation is impossible.

Ok, and I respect that… But we know that if Jesus wants us to understand something clearly, it’s repeated several times, all the way through Revelation without contradiction.

Truth be told, I’m not worried about transubstantiation, I only pray that you, and all those on this forum have a place in God’s eternity, and feel His embrace when you meet Him…!

 

[Justin_Mary]

Ok, and I respect that… But we know that if Jesus wants us to understand something clearly, it’s repeated several times, all the way through Revelation without contradiction.

Exactly. He told us, through Abraham that God himself will provide the Lamb. He told us through Moses if we mark our doors with the blood of the Lamb & eat its flesh, the angel of death will pass over us. He told us, from his very lips unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you have no life in you. In Revelation we see the Lamb on the throne preparing for his supper.

55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

 

[4Him]

It also undermines the premise that only scripture is sufficient for salvation.

So the question, if we had nothing other than written Scriptures, could we realize salvation…? Here’s what God said…

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, “the gospel of your salvation”. When you believed , you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

This does not discount the value of oral teaching, but does show that just knowing and following scripture is a path to salvation.

 

[humbleseeker]

So, removing opinions…

I didn’t use an opinion but Paul’s own words from sacred scripture. Sacred Tradition is never contradicted by Sacred Scripture because they share equal authority and originate from the same source.

what God explained is the path to go back home

And this is the source:

Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood* has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.18k And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,* and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.19l I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.*Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

My way home to the Father is to obey the traditions of the very institution that Christ established, both oral and written.

 

[4Him]

Exactly. He told us, through Abraham that God himself will provide the Lamb. He told us through Moses if we mark our doors with the blood of the Lamb & eat its flesh, the angel of death will pass over us. He told us, from his very lips unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you have no life in you. In Revelation we see the Lamb on the throne preparing for his supper.

Here’s another example of why we should look at Scripture “in context”. Earlier in the chapter, Jesus fed the 5,000, John 6:1–13. The next day, the same multitudes continued to follow Him, seeking another meal. Jesus pointed out their short-sightedness: they were only seeking physical bread, but there was something more important: “Food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you” (verse 27). At this point, Jesus attempts to turn their perspective away from physical sustenance to their true need, which was spiritual.
This contrast between physical food and spiritual food sets the stage for Jesus’ statement that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Jesus explains that it is not physical bread that the world needs, but spiritual bread. Jesus three times identifies Himself as that spiritual bread John 6:35 [48], [51]. And twice He emphasizes faith as the key to salvation: “My Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life” (verse 40); and “Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life” (verse 47).

 

[4Him]

My way home to the Father is to obey the traditions of the very institution that Christ established, both oral and written.

OK, I just hope those traditions are approved by the God you seek…

 

[humbleseeker]

This does not discount the value of oral teaching, but does show that just knowing and following scripture is a path to salvation.

Agreed, scripture is a way to salvation, but not the only way.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

This passage actually proves to much for the intention you are using it. The Gospels had yet to be written when Timothy was a young boy so the scriptures Paul references here are the writings of the Old Testament, not the New.

 

[humbleseeker]

Jesus three times identifies Himself as that spiritual bread John 6:35 [48], [51].

Where does Jesus identify himself as spiritual bread?

Verse 35: “Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.”

Verse 48: "I am the bread of life.“

Verse 51: “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

Here’s the next verse, 52: “The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Wouldn’t this have been a perfect place for Jesus to clarify that he is only speaking in a spiritual or figurative sense? But he doesn’t, because he isn’t, and he goes further:

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen(Truth, truth), I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.55For **my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.**56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus was speaking literally and sacramentally. This was clearly understood by his disciples and many drew away and walked with him no longer.

 

[hope]

So the question, if we had nothing other than written Scriptures, could we realize salvation…? Here’s what God said…

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, “the gospel of your salvation”. When you believed , you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Pointing out that when they write about Gospel it is not talking about scripture.
The scripture uses Gospel here meaning glad tidings. As also pointed out, only the Jewish Scriptures existed.

 

[hope]

*Putting it into context would also include Jesus saying Verily, Verily, which is His way of saying Listen up I am telling you the truth. Unless you eat MY Body and Drink MY Blood you will have no life in me. Up until he said this how how you interpret it would be valid but after He said I am speaking truth your interpretation is not valid. The scripture here speaks of a future event that future event was the Last Supper. Which brings this around to the subject of this thread. The original Mass and Jesus’ explaining why.

This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me

This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.

 

[Wannano]

Actually it is…“no life in you” not “me.”

 

[Uriel1]

I have a free publication called “the Mass in Scripture” on PDF
If you PM me your e-mail address I’ll send you a copy

 

[4Him]

Agreed, scripture is a way to salvation, but not the only way.

How to be saved - Right from God:
Rom 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Notice no mention of written or oral revelation. He just wants our hearts.

This passage actually proves to much for the intention you are using it. The Gospels had yet to be written when Timothy was a young boy so the scriptures Paul references here are the writings of the Old Testament, not the New.

Exactly, The Old Testament was scripture… the Hebrews, as explained in the text, relied heavily on God’s written word as a path to salvation through faith.

Rom 10:17 - “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”

 

[4Him]

Jesus was speaking literally and sacramentally. This was clearly understood by his disciples and many drew away and walked with him no longer.

OK, thanks… I respectfully disagree, using all the scripture that I previously shared, that explains He is “Spiritual Bread”, and as Jesus said later “I was speaking to you figuratively”. Two final thoughts: eating flesh was not only against their current laws, it was cannibalism. Also, Jesus saying Amen, Amen, was letting them know that what he was about to say was “really” important. Jesus used food metaphors frequently, and he used a topic they could relate to… physical food. He “just” finished feeding 5,000 followers with fish and bread…

 

[4Him]

The scripture uses Gospel here meaning glad tidings. As also pointed out, only the Jewish Scriptures existed.

The word Gospel, euaggelion actually has seven meanings, one of them is the glad tidings of salvation through Christ.

In the very next passage, we find:
Rom 1:17 “For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is “written” (grapho) : “The righteous will live by faith”

grapho: to write, with reference to the form of the letters.

 

[4Him]

*Putting it into context would also include Jesus saying Verily, Verily, which is His way of saying Listen up I am telling you the truth. Unless you eat MY Body and Drink MY Blood you will have no life in me. Up until he said this how how you interpret it would be valid but after He said I am speaking truth your interpretation is not valid. The scripture here speaks of a future event that future event was the Last Supper. Which brings this around to the subject of this thread. The original Mass and Jesus’ explaining why.

As just recently shared… I respectfully disagree, using all the scripture that I previously shared, explaining, He is “Spiritual Bread”, and as Jesus said later “I was speaking to you figuratively”. Two final thoughts: eating flesh was not only against their current laws, it was cannibalism.

Also, Jesus saying Amen, Amen, was letting them know that what he was about to say was “really” important. Jesus used food “metaphors” frequently, and he used a topic they could relate to… physical food. He “just” finished feeding 5,000 followers with fish and bread…

Looking up how many times Jesus uses food/drink metaphors might help…

 

[4Him]

I have a free publication called “the Mass in Scripture” on PDF
If you PM me your e-mail address I’ll send you a copy

Thanks so much for the offer… I have over 12 years of research on this, so I’m betting I already have it… but I do appreciate that…!

 

[humbleseeker]

Two final thoughts: eating flesh was not only against their current laws, it was cannibalism.

Yes, the idea of Christians eating human flesh first appears explicitly in Justin Martyr (1 Apol. 26; 2 Apol. 12). Justin ( c. 150 C.E.). While false, the very idea that these accusations could even be brought forth lends credence that the earliest Christians understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus. How could one be accused of being a figurative cannibal?

You are correct that under the old covenant the drinking of animal blood is forbidden. To do so is to consume “life” that is merely natural and of a lower order than human life. Jesus’ injunction does not fall under these prohibitions. The “life” he imparts is not natural but supernatural; it does not pull us down to the level of animals; it elevates is to become sharers in his divine nature(2 Peter 1:4)(CCC 1391)

 

[hope]

Jesus said later “I was speaking to you figuratively”.

Jesus never said this He actually said the opposite Amen amen which you ignore and means I speak the truth.

 

[hope]

You are right of course.