What is the purpose, if any, of art?

[Charlemagne_II]

**Thinking

I may be wrong, but it seems that you are treating mind and the metaphorical “heart” as mutually exclusive concepts.**

Not at all. They ought to be complementary, not mutually exclusive. You know, the left brain right brain thing. But the heart can be in pain, and the brain can come to the rescue. Or the brain can be in pain, and the heart can come to the rescue. When either is excluded from helping the other, as in the case of the atheist who denies the beauty of sacred music or sacred art, I think it is the heart that is in pain, and the brain that is in denial.

 

[Contarini]

So… I assume everyone here spends their entire day praying and reading the bible 24/7?

No, obviously we spend a lot of time writing inane posts on the Internet.

Note: no specific reference to any posts on this thread. Charlemagne II’s posts, in particular, have been far from inane and have moved and inspired me greatly! (Thought I should mention that since he and I have had our differences at times)

Edwin

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Not at all. They ought to be complementary, not mutually exclusive. You know, the left brain right brain thing. But the heart can be in pain, and the brain can come to the rescue. Or the brain can be in pain, and the heart can come to the rescue. When either is excluded from helping the other, as in the case of the atheist who denies the beauty of sacred music or sacred art, I think it is the heart that is in pain, and the brain that is in denial.

With that being said if I understand your earlier message correctly you were saying that your associate refuses to listen to religious music because he might be “moved” by it. (Is that correct?).

I thought about that for a bit and I’ve seen it before in different forms. At a church that I attended there was a discussion about music and a struggle that some of the young adults were experiencing. There was music that reinforced messages that were contrary to their religious convictions but the music was really “good”; the liked listening to it and found themselves singing to it. I don’t know anything about your associate, but if there is some disagreement that he has with some religion or denomination I could understand him deciding to refuse to listen to certain types of music that he might otherwise find pleasing.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**Contarini

he and I have had our differences at times**

Yes, we do get carried away, don’t we?



Do you like baseball?

youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

There was music that reinforced messages that were contrary to their religious convictions but the music was really “good”; the liked listening to it and found themselves singing to it.

Arius’ doubtful practices? Art is Satan. Art is a lie.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelation 22.15)

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Art is Satan. Art is a lie.

Some art is satanic. Some art lies.

Some art is angelic. Some art tells sublime truths.

In this sense art and philosophy and religion are subject to the same triumphs and disasters.

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (Exodus 20.4)

When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. (Deuteronomy 4.26)

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: (Deuteronomy 5.8)

And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. (Deuteronomy 4.12)

What are the Catholics’ ten commandments?

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Where is:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20.4-6)

Nota bene: “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them”.
The 10th commandment is split in the Catholics’ 9th & 10th. This is highly astonishing.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deuteronomy 4.2)

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Riuji

Are you Protestant or Muslim or what? Please identify. You seem not to know the Bible very well.

Making graven images in the passage you identify is clearly a reference to images of false gods, which the Jews had left behind in Egypt.

Whereas in the Book of Exodus, God commands Moses to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with gold images of two cherubim (angels). So graven images as such are not forbidden, but graven images of false gods surely are.

What is your beef with art?

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

Please identify

I am of the “ten horns”.

What is your beef with art?

Well before having had contact with religion I discovered that in order to be efficient mathematically, images are to be hated. You want mental structures. Art really is for the effeminate / carnal.

Whereas in the Book of Exodus, God commands Moses to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with gold images of two cherubim (angels). So graven images as such are not forbidden, but graven images of false gods surely are.

Indeed, God commanded Moses. Did God command the Egyptians monkery, icons, holy relics or water, oil of saints, fasts, vain repetitions, church hierarchy etc.? Why did the saints not command the people not to venerate them?

What is god? A god, in the Bible, is any concept or object that is venerated. The original concept of god is the Son. Any thing venerated is a god because the original object of veneration is Him to whom the original concept of god applies. By veneration I mean

If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking in brightness; And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand: This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above. (Job 31.26-28)

When a concept applies to nothing, as in the case of any god but Him, it is the concept itself that is venerated. Venerating the Son is the original idolatry: instead of venerating Him to whom the original concept of god applies it is the concept itself who is venerated. The Son is the original concept of god. The original concept of god does not apply to itself.

Solomon is the most wise man. He had the best rationalizations for his veneration of other gods. Do you think he did venerate gold, silver, brass, stone or wood? Still it was a sin.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I am of the “ten horns”.

As in 10 horns and 7 heads?

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

As in 10 horns and 7 heads?

Yes.

houtoi meta tou Arniou polemēsousin kai to Arnion nikēsei autous hoti Kyrios kyriōn estin kai Basileus basileōn kai hoi met’ autou klētoi kai eklektoi kai pistoi

These shall make war with [meta] the Lamb, and the Lamb shall conquer them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings *: and they that are with [met’] him are called, and chosen, and faithful [the ten horns]. (Revelation 17.14)
*

I do not understand “these shall make war with the Lamb” as “these shall war against the Lamb” cf. the meaning of meta & met’. Moreover “and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful” appears to refer to those 10 kings which the King of kings did conquer i.e., call & chose.

kai ta deka kerata ha eides deka basileis eisin hoitines basileian oupō elabon alla exousian hōs basileis mian hōran lambanousin meta tou thēriou houtoi mian gnōmēn echousin kai tēn dynamin kai exousian autōn tō thēriō didoasin

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet [they are the 2 witnesses now & shall reign when they become of the 7 angels]; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast [reign one hour over the beast. 2 kings per hour. 0) The beast lives 5 heads, the 6th is slain then the 7th i.e., go to 0)]. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. [against the beast shall they give their power & strength] (Revelation 17.12, 13)

And there are seven kings [7 ages]: five are fallen [where the 10 kings were 2 witnesses, 2 per age], and one is [the age the angel speaks in i.e., the 6th], and the other is not yet come [the 7th]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space [the time is at hand]. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth [the beast = the 7 heads], and is of the seven [the 7 heads = the 7th], and goeth into perdition. (Revelation 17.10, 11)

Those who live on earth die the second death i.e., fall asleep in the dream of the 6 ages only to dream that very same dream again & again. Those who live in heaven have 2 dreams. In the one they are the 2 witnesses, 10 kings without kingdom, 10 horns. In the other, a lucid dream, they are of the 7 angels. Both dreams are identical in the 6th age because both standpoints are synthesized: the marriage supper. The 7th angel = the 7 angels = Christ & when he pours his vial, those who live in heaven wake up in the eternal 7th day. Then they blink their eyes / fall asleep & dream one of those 2 dreams, the one then the other then… For only God lives for ever & ever.

The 6 ages / days are not unlike the Groundhog Day but there is no way out except for those who live in heaven who see the inward Spirit of Jesus. The others see only the outward of the Son of Man.

Symptom: déjà vus.

 

[jmcrae]

Well before having had contact with religion I discovered that in order to be efficient mathematically, images are to be hated. You want mental structures. Art really is for the effeminate / carnal.

What about writing, or music? Are those also forbidden?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

visual maths?

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

What about writing, or music? Are those also forbidden?

There was yesterday a symphony concert here in remembrance of Einstein. It was the first time I let Bach, Haydn, etc. encircle me for two hours long. Nonetheless, the pianist on the occasion was really fabulous.

Recently I have read a novel by Gogol and was altogether surprised how good it is. Previously I had once begun to read Dostoevski but found that his art consists principally in producing depression in his readers—but one can of course gladly avoid that. In any case I do not believe that the best in world-literature is the German literature. (Kurt Gödel in A logical journey: from Gödel to philosophy, Hao Wang)

It seems clear to me that G would essentially agree with my criticism of ‘analytic empiricism’ and the sketched alternative view of mathematics in BA (summarized on pp. 10–26). But I am not able to convince myself of the universal applicability of G’s mathematical or conceptual realism. G expresses his sympathy with Plato by saying that he is, like Plato, a ‘rationalist’ and an ‘idealist,’ and his antipathy toward Aristotle by calling him an ‘empiricist’ and a ‘materialist.’ I believe that I attach more importance than G to the contingent and the unpredictable, feel a greater need to be down to earth, care more about what is thisworldly, and recognize more of the basically new human experiences (acquired after the days of Plato or Leibniz) as philosophically relevant. [It has been said that Plato represents the highest form of unity of Apollonian (intellectually centered, more in the early and late dialogues) and Dionysiac (the emotional or mystic, more in the middle dialogues) humanism. G’s philosophy appears to point to a similar combination, except that it is hard to imagine Plato striving for ‘philosophy as an exact theory’ or G writing extended ‘poetic’ passages.] (Reflections on Kurt Gödel, Hao Wang)

Do you know what is the origin of the literary roman i.e., novels / fables?

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar’s effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant
their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea. (Antiquities, Book 18, Ch. 3, Josephus)

God is to be eminently dreaded. Satan is un enfant de choeur in comparison.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5.18)

 

[jmcrae]

Do you know what is the origin of the literary roman i.e., novels / fables?

I am under the impression that the first one written for English-speaking people was Historia Regum Britanniae written c. 1136 by Geoffrey of Monmouth.

Your point … ?

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

Origin of the roman: the fables of the lives of saints pioneered by Athanasius the Egyptian. Why did not the saints tell you that you should not pray to them. Not even venerate them.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Revelation 6.9-11)

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. (Revelation 15.8)

What is it to die the first death? It is like not dreaming in your sleep.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15.3-6)

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. (1 Corinthians 15.16-19)

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15.50-52)

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11.9-14)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (Acts 13.36)

I can continue.

 

[jmcrae]

Origin of the roman: the fables of the lives of saints pioneered by Athanasius the Egyptian. Why did not the saints tell you that you should not pray to them. Not even venerate them.

What is it to die the first death? It is like not dreaming in your sleep.

I can continue.

I’m sure you can.

It seems to me that you are not preaching the True Religion of the Catholic Faith, but some other gospel, of which we are warned in the Scriptures, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” - Galatians 1:8

 

[Ryuji_Yamazaki]

Is the Gospel another Gospel?

 

[meltzerboy]

God is to be eminently dreaded. Satan is un enfant de choeur in comparison.

G-d eminently dreaded? Fear of the L-rd means being in awe of His majesty. The justice of G-d is always intertwined with His mercy.