What is the purpose of good works?

[Love4All]

I think good works flow from love, which includes and is superior to faith. In fact, the Church teaches that the virtue of faith-and hope as well-can exist without love while love encompasses the other virtues. Love is the goal, the fullness of man’s righteousness/justice. And this would mean that, while faith is the beginning and foundation of our justification, it’s not the end of it; and works do not, of necessity, stem from it.

Excellent! I would add, Love is the beginning, not Faith. Faith either comes from Love, or it is not Faith at all.

 

[Love4All]

Oh, I agree very much that Christian circles often hide behind loving God at the expense of their neighbor. This is why I left Evangelicalism. I would also agree, as my signature states, “where charity and love are, God is there”. That is because God IS love. God is goodness, so wherever it manifests God is there. That is very different than saying someone who merely does good is saved and will see God in the beatific vision.

How can someone who turns their back on God by denying his very existence enter into eternity with him. Like Adam and Eve chose themselves and brought separation from God, so to does an Atheist who chooses himself over God, choose for himself to be separated from God.

I am not saying all Catholics are saved, or all Christians, and no atheists are. That is all for God to determine and sort out, but I believe it is highly unlikely that someone who waves their fist at God, calls him a sky fairy, and chooses to deny him will be allowed or forced to spend eternity with God. They can choose themselves and their own destruction.

I believe it leads people astray to say there is no need for the church and sacraments and all you need to do is "be a good person ". The church explicitly denies this although our secular culture proclaims it.

The question is not, “do they accept (such and such an idea about) God?” The question is, do they love? All love comes from God.

Sins of ignorance can be forgiven, just as sins of weakness can be forgiven. It is only sins of malice that can eternally condemn, since these are sins against the Holy Ghost, Who Is Love. Malice is deliberately rejecting love. It seems to me many atheists will be horrified at the recognition of the sorrow they have inflicted on Jesus in their ignorance, but when it comes down to it, they will finally beg Him for Mercy. At least, that is my hope. In the meantime, we are called to do everything in our power to alleviate their ignorance.

 

[Love4All]

If our "ticket to heaven’ is not free, then it sounds like you are saying we must earn our salvation by doing good works.

It isn’t “free.” It is a Gift that has been purchased for us at a terrible Price. It cost Jesus His All. And He asks of us in return, our all.

Okay, so what is the standard for “out of Love”?

Love is the Standard. Of course. What else?

And by what standard can we evaluate if his motives are too self centered, or not?

Why do we need a standard for evaluating others? Is, “judge not, lest ye be judged,” insufficient for us? Are we the Judge, or is Christ the Judge? Leave all judgement to Him; you get on with the business of Loving.

I know some godless gangsters who will do anything for each other, to provide their ‘homies’ with food, shelter, and clothing. They care for their own better than the families that brought them into this world. Will they be able to gain heaven because they did this love in action?

Not ours to judge, but God’s. The best we can do is to love them and speak the Truth to them in Love.

 

[Love4All]

The purpose of good works is simply to please God.

“We” do not even “do” good works. Good works is God doing His Own Will. If we obey His Commandments, that is all well and good, but we are still doing nothing beyond what the Master has commanded us.

Yes, He is pleased with us when we carry out His Commandments, but to say the purpose is “to please God” seems to set up a duality still, as if to say that I, the branch, could possibly do anything apart from Him, the Vine.

God pleases Himself in our good works. They are not “ours,” but His.

 

[steve_b]

This post was removed from another thread where it was off topic.

I gotta tell you Koine, it just seems absolutely absurd to recite these “solas”. If you have to have five of them, then obviously they are not “alone”.

I would make a distinction, that we are saved by grace, a grace that is accessed through faith. Faith alone does not save us. Even faith exercised in good works, because if they are not done in the grace of Christ, they are of no eternal value.

I think what you are saying here is that you are in agreement with Catholics that a saving faith is a faith that works (faith without works is dead). As Catholics we find that many of our fundamentalist brethren stop reading at vs. 9, but we continue to read through v. 10:

Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, **created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. **

From reading your posts, it sounds like we are in agreement that the saved person’s lifestyle (way of life) should be one that demonstrates the good works (ergos hagios) that are produced by the same grace that saves us.

So it seems that our discussion may focus on the relationship of works to salvation?

I gather that you are from Calvanist theology, so we will have a disagreement about the nature of salvation. But I think we also might have a disagreement about the meaning of “merit”, and on that topic, may actually be closer in understanding.

To add to what has been said

If we don’t do what we are created to do by God, [eph 2:10] then as Jesus says what good are we? Luke 13:7-10

 

[Jon_S_1]

The question is not, “do they accept (such and such an idea about) God?” The question is, do they love? All love comes from God.

Sins of ignorance can be forgiven, just as sins of weakness can be forgiven. It is only sins of malice that can eternally condemn, since these are sins against the Holy Ghost, Who Is Love. Malice is deliberately rejecting love. It seems to me many atheists will be horrified at the recognition of the sorrow they have inflicted on Jesus in their ignorance, but when it comes down to it, they will finally beg Him for Mercy. At least, that is my hope. In the meantime, we are called to do everything in our power to alleviate their ignorance.

Can you please show me where in the catechism it says that we have a second chance at salvation after death. This is what you propose here. That the atheist who have afflicted sorrow on Jesus, the Dawkins and Hitchens and their followers will somehow see God snd be able to choose him after death.

HELLO I AM FEELING QUITE ALONE REFUTING THIS HERESY HERE!!!

 

[JonNC]

I take exception to your phrase, “until his death.” The Sacrament of Matrimony is “until death.” The Sacrament of Holy Orders is “forever.”

Luther is now, and forever, a priest. If he repented of his heresy before his death, he found salvation; if not, he is still a priest, albeit in hell.

I stand corrected on “until his death”. Even the Catholic Church does not claim to know if anyone, but perhaps Judas, is in Hell.

Jon

 

[SD_Catholic]

“We” do not even “do” good works. Good works is God doing His Own Will. If we obey His Commandments, that is all well and good, but we are still doing nothing beyond what the Master has commanded us.

Yes, He is pleased with us when we carry out His Commandments, but to say the purpose is “to please God” seems to set up a duality still, as if to say that I, the branch, could possibly do anything apart from Him, the Vine.

God pleases Himself in our good works. They are not “ours,” but His.

I get what you are saying but I think we have to be careful not to detract from our God given right to free will… We still have to allow God to work through us… As we can always deny Him and thus choose not to do the good works. We are continually “doing” this good work, even if it is only allowing Him to work through us… Just my thoughts and probably not even necessary to bring up.

 

[fhansen]

God pleases Himself in our good works. They are not “ours,” but His.

I wonder if it’s not even better to say that they’re both of ours- because we are His, a work of His, an expression of His, made in His image, an emanation of Him, perhaps, at least to the extent we do His will, which, of course, we’re free not to do. And anything outside His will is, by definition, sin.

Because God is definitely pleased when His creation cooperates and does His will, does the works He’s planned for them to do.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I wonder if it’s not even better to say that they’re both of ours- because we are His, a work of His, an expression of His, an emanation of Him, made in His image, to the extent we do His will, which, of course, we’re free not to do. And anything outside His will is, by definition, sin.

Because God is definitely pleased when His creation cooperates and does His will, does the works He’s planned for them to do.

CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

I think I understand. My point in any case is that all good comes from God-but humankind is not outside that good-we are part of His good creation to begin with, even though fallen in our present state, but also potentially risen, of course, and hopefully rising as we speak.

The interesting thing to me is that the relationship between man and God was originally, and is meant to be again, a very intimate one. While we remain our own persons, we’re nonetheless ultimately meant to commune with God in a relationship of love, with no sin or falsehood in us interfering with or distracting from that relationship, and in which any sense of duality would become less apparent IMO. We come from God so to speak, and we, hopefully, return to God.

 

[bsroufek]

Matthew 5:48 “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”
1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”

We are called to do good works in reflection of, solidarity with, and cooperation with God.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I think I understand. My point in any case is that all good comes from God-but humankind is not outside that good-we are part of His good creation to begin with, even though fallen in our present state, but also potentially risen, of course, and hopefully rising as we speak.

The interesting thing to me is that the relationship between man and God was originally, and is meant to be again, a very intimate one. While we remain our own persons, we’re nonetheless ultimately meant to commune with God in a relationship of love, with no sin or falsehood in us interfering with or distracting from that relationship, and in which any sense of duality would become less apparent IMO. We come from God so to speak, and we, hopefully, return to God.

 

[Love4All]

Can you please show me where in the catechism it says that we have a second chance at salvation after death. This is what you propose here. That the atheist who have afflicted sorrow on Jesus, the Dawkins and Hitchens and their followers will somehow see God snd be able to choose him after death.

HELLO I AM FEELING QUITE ALONE REFUTING THIS HERESY HERE!!!

Chill out, I am not spouting heresy, at least not intentionally. They can be horrified at their sins in this life, can they not? If they learn the truth.

But additionally, they will be judged, not on whether or not they believed, but on whether or not they loved. All love comes from God, and since God is Love, it is Love that saves us; not Faith, not Hope, not Knowledge, not Wisdom, not Fear of the Lord. Only Love.

The equation of Faith with Salvation is part of Martin Luther’s heresy, not Catholic Doctrine. Atheists who love can certainly be saved. If they persevere in Love, they will be. In that process, they may come to know God, since God is Love. But if they truly love, they already do know Him, even if they are unaware of the Identity of He whom they know.

It isn’t left to “chance.” God does not hold out “chances” for salvation. God saves. He knows who are His own. He loves us. He loves all of His human creatures. All those who love, and persevere in love, will have the reward of love, which is Love.

Love is the whole meaning of life. It is the final Purpose of everything. So as Pope John Paul II used to say, echoing the angels, “Be not afraid!” “Perfect Love casteth out all fear.”

I’m not saying to stop evangelizing, because the purpose of evangelism, indeed the whole purpose of Faith, is to draw us more and more deeply into Love.

I am saying, with the Church, that “those who, through no fault of their own, do not yet possess an explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ, can too be saved, in a way known to God, provided they obey the dictates of their conscience.” I may have paraphrased, but you get the gist. It is from Vatican II.

 

[Love4All]

I get what you are saying but I think we have to be careful not to detract from our God given right to free will… We still have to allow God to work through us… As we can always deny Him and thus choose not to do the good works. We are continually “doing” this good work, even if it is only allowing Him to work through us… Just my thoughts and probably not even necessary to bring up.

Actually, while I am not disagreeing with you, that, essentially, our free co-operation with grace is required, it is a humbling thought to recognize the following. Everything in the universe serves God. Nothing at all can escape His Will. He causes both good and evil to work together for the good of those who love Him.

So, we have our options before us: we can either choose to love Him and co-operate with Him, and thus He works His Will through our free will, or, we can choose to reject and hate Him, and rebel and fight against Him, in which case He still uses all our actions to do His Will, in spite of our desire to thwart Him.

Satan only wishes He could defeat God’s Work. Really, he becomes part of it in spite of himself. He serves God, all unwillingly, but perfectly as God is Infinitely Perfect.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I am saying, with the Church, that “those who, through no fault of their own, do not yet possess an explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ, can too be saved, in a way known to God, provided they obey the dictates of their conscience.” I may have paraphrased, but you get the gist. It is from Vatican II.

You definitely paraphrased; EXPLICIT Knowledge is not mentioned:

You seem to have a very liberal view of invincible ignorance. As if Hitchens or Dawkins who dissect the church’s teachings to destroy the church, are somehow ignorant of what the church teachings. This teaching is meant for people who have not heard who Jesus is and have not heard the plan of salvation. If it is anything other than that, and simply an affirmation of universality, the the church and sacraments are worthless and you waste your time participating.

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)

 

[Jon_S_1]

Actually, while I am not disagreeing with you, that, essentially, our free co-operation with grace is required, it is a humbling thought to recognize the following. Everything in the universe serves God. Nothing at all can escape His Will. He causes both good and evil to work together for the good of those who love Him.

So, we have our options before us: we can either choose to love Him and co-operate with Him, and thus He works His Will through our free will, or, we can choose to reject and hate Him, and rebel and fight against Him, in which case He still uses all our actions to do His Will, in spite of our desire to thwart Him.

Satan only wishes He could defeat God’s Work. Really, he becomes part of it in spite of himself. He serves God, all unwillingly, but perfectly as God is Infinitely Perfect.

You are mistaken to say God causes evil.

God cannot cause evil since good is completely good.

God allows evil to exist, and evil is purely a result of the gift of free will given to both the angels and man.

 

[fhansen]

You are mistaken to say God causes evil.

God cannot cause evil since good is completely good.

God allows evil to exist, and evil is purely a result of the gift of free will given to both the angels and man.

I think L4A’s statement wasn’t that God causes evil, rather that God brings good out of evil by causing “both good and evil to work together for the good of those who love Him”. Making lemonade out of lemons IOW.

 

[catanswers9]

A gift provided by Him for fulfillment of our faith, made possible by His grace.