What is the "Rapture" and is it true?

[charles_allan]

If you don’t believe in the rapture then one would have to have a substitute meaning for Thessalonians 4 : 17 and also for …“one shall be taken and one shall be left”…Jesus.

If there was no rapture then the Christians would still be on the earth when Jesus puts his enemies under his feet.

 

[Cat_Herder]

If you don’t believe in the rapture then one would have to have a substitute meaning for Thessalonians 4 : 17 and also for …“one shall be taken and one shall be left”…Jesus.

If there was no rapture then the Christians would still be on the earth when Jesus puts his enemies under his feet.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn’t prove a rapture because it does not establish separate resurrections.
Haydock:

[1 Thess. 4] Ver. 15. *With commandment.[3] *God’s command will in a moment raise and bring all to judgment. — And the dead, who are in Christ, in the grace of Christ, shall rise first, not as to time, but in dignity. *Wi. — Shall rise first. *Not in order of time, for all shall rise in the twinkling of an eye, but first in order of dignity.

As for this…
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 24:38-41[/BIBLEDRB]
This cannot be a prophecy of a rapture because the ones who were taken in Noah’s flood were NOT the saved. We WANT to be left behind. The ones who were taken in the flood died!

 

[Cat_Herder]

,
Word studies in the Word of God are very profitable for the serious student.

• Priest – From the Greek hiereus [hee-er-yooce]: A priest.

This word is used in 74 verses in the New Testament. Interestingly, it is not found in Paul’s epistles with the exception of Hebrews, where it is found 26 times. Peter, while writing to the scattered of Israel, tells them [the Jews] that they are a “…royal priesthood……” [1 Peter 2:9]. Commentators have to do “spiritual” gymnastics to [try to] make this fit the Body of Christ. This priesthood is for a future generation of Jews.

I already disproved this in a previous post here.

 

[pablope]

πρεσβυτεριον presbuterion pres-boo-ter’-ee-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of 4245; the order of elders, i.e. (specially), Israelite Sanhedrin or Christian “presbytery”:—(estate of) elder(-s), presbytery.

See Greek 4245

Sorry…don’t know greek…but presbyter is transliterated to priest…or elder as was used before in those times…based on 2000 yrs of tradition…and also from somone who studied this before they became catholic:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIEST3.HTM

Insight #2: The word “priest”

Now that was the first insight I wanted to share with you that led me to conclude there is a New Testament priesthood. The second is something I discovered when pondering the different offices in the Catholic Church. In my Protestant congregation, we had elders and deacons. I knew that the Catholic Church had deacons, but I had never heard of a Catholic elder. “Why was that?” I wondered. The answer involves a little lesson in translation.

1. The origin of the word

In Greek, the word for elder is presbuteros. That word was transliterated into Latin as presbyter, which then in English became shortened to priest. That’s why you never hear about “Catholic elders.” It is because Catholic priests are Catholics elders. That’s what the word “priest” means; it is simply a shortened English form of presbuteros. You can check any dictionary you want to confirm this. So obviously we can say that there is some kind of priesthood today because there are elders today.

1. Examples from the Douay-Rheims

In fact, if you read some older Catholic translations of the Bible, they will use the word “priest,” entirely appropriately, where the Protestant Bible says “elder.” For example, this is the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, which is the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version.

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus: “For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee.”

 

[charles_allan]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn’t prove a rapture because it does not establish separate resurrections.

As for this…
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 24:38-41[/BIBLEDRB]
This cannot be a prophecy of a rapture because the ones who were taken in Noah’s flood were NOT the saved. We WANT to be left behind. The ones who were taken in the flood died!

So where do we rise to ?
What happens once we have met Jesus in the air.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So where do we rise to ?
What happens once we have met Jesus in the air.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=catechism%20of%20the%20catholic%20church%20general%20judgment&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vatican.va%2Farchive%2Fccc_css%2Farchive%2Fcatechism%2Fp123a12.htm&ei=SfaSUJ7YDrO10AGH7IHIDQ&usg=AFQjCNHuZFToYJ3scjNH95ekoSNvVB6a7g

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=catholic%20treasury%20last%20judgement&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholictreasury.info%2Fbooks%2Feverlasting_life%2Fev12.php&ei=WPiSUPPTG6rD0AGRrIDYCw&usg=AFQjCNHVkSnGvKxGirTDaH1DV_tO4m0PfQ

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=catholic%20treasury%20resurection&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CC4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholictreasury.info%2Fbooks%2Fenchiridion%2Fench23.php&ei=DPmSUNe_PJCA0AH4xYCAAQ&usg=AFQjCNHhmV_ybyf2pVa-4gam5af-GcIfBw

 

[Cat_Herder]

So where do we rise to ?
What happens once we have met Jesus in the air.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 24:21-30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 4:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 20:11-15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 21:1-4[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[charles_allan]

I understand the great white throne judgement to be at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus

• the millennial reign coming after the rapture and the first resurrection of Christians where
  we meet Jesus in the air.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

There is only one Final Judgement at the end of time. This has been the faith of both Catholic and Protestant churches from the beginnig. The idea of multiple judgments began with Darby

 

[charles_allan]

Revelation 20:4–6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the FIRST resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Then Darby must have been reading scripture.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Revelation 20:4–6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the FIRST resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Then Darby must have been reading scripture.

He missed these five things.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

No doubt, My point is that there are Calvinists who believe in the rapture. Reformed I suppose. I don’t believe its subjected to this paradigm.

It is precisely the Reformed who do NOT believe in the popular doctrine of the pretrib rapture. That is because they stick to the historic Confessions of the Reformation, which taught amillenialism. Read the Westminster Confession and many others. There is not a hide nor hair of this doctrine anywhere in these confessions.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Revelation 20:4–6
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the FIRST resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Then Darby must have been reading scripture.

Why is Darby right and all those who came before were wrong?

 

[charles_allan]

It is from scripture

 

[pablope]

I understand the great white throne judgement to be at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus

• the millennial reign coming after the rapture and the first resurrection of Christians where
  we meet Jesus in the air.

the-highway.com/rapture_Woodrow1.html

But do the scriptures teach that the rapture will be a secret, invisible, and quiet event? Let us look at the main verse on the rapture and see.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:16, 17).

To us, this verse indicates anything but a quiet, secret rapture. Whether we take the “shout”, the “voice”, and the “trump” in a literal sense or as having a figurative meaning, either way, this passage does not convey the idea of a secret and quiet event! If anything, it would indicate that the coming of the Lord will be a loud, noisy, open, and wonderous event. Amid the sound of the Lord himself descending from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God, there will be the sounds of praise and rejoicing from vast multitudes of saints as they are caught up to meet the Lord! Where is any secrecy here? This is not the description of a hidden and quiet event. Nevertheless, in spite of every indication to the contrary, this verse is constantly used as a text for sermons which describe the rapture as a secret, hidden, and quiet coming of Christ!

Instead of teaching that he would return in a secret coming, Jesus actually warned against this concept: “If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not . . . If they shall say unto you . . . behold, he is in the SECRET chambers; believe it not. FOR as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be” (Mt. 24:23,26,27). Whatever else may be included in these statements, one thing is certain: such wording is surely contrary to the idea of “secrecy” in connection with the coming of Christ.

Also in the context of Matthew 24, Jesus stressed that men do not know the day nor the hour of the Second Coming (Mt. 24:36). It will be “as it was in the days of Noah” when people were eating, drinking, and getting married — not expecting destruction to fall. They “knew not UNTIL the flood came, and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be” (verses 38, 39). The wicked knew not until the flood came — but, obviously, when it came they knew it. It was no secret event. It was observed by believers and unbelievers.

“If therefore thou shalt not watch”, Jesus said, “I will come on thee as a THIEF, and thou shalt not know what hour I shall come upon thee” (Rev. 3:3). “Behold, I come as a THIEF. Blessed is he that watcheth” (Rev. 16:15). Here again is the warning to “watch”, for we know not the time of his coming. He will come as a thief. But there is nothing here to indicate a secret and quiet coming of Christ in which he will mysteriously take believers out of this world so that no one will know what happened to them or who took them. We should not think that the Lord will prowl around like a thief, working in the dark, afraid of being discovered. The meaning is that he will COME “as a thief”, not that he will ACT like a thief!

 

[pablope]

I understand the great white throne judgement to be at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus

• the millennial reign coming after the rapture and the first resurrection of Christians where
  we meet Jesus in the air.

the-highway.com/rapture_Woodrow2.html

1. Will the Return of Christ be in Two Stages?

According to these dispensational writers, the rapture will take place first, and the COMING of Christ will take place seven years later. But attempting to make the rapture a separate and earlier event from the coming of Christ is a teaching that is contrary to the united testimony of the Bible!

For example, Jesus said: “Be ye therefore also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man COMETH” (Mt. 24:44). Why would Jesus warn about being ready for the COMING of the Son of man, if really what we are to be ready for is a secret rapture to take place seven years before his coming?

The same point can be seen in Revelation 16:15: “Behold, I COME as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth.” Why would such a warning be given about his COMING, if seven years before his COMING believers would already be taken to heaven?

Or notice Hebrews 10:36, 37: “For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall COME will COME, and will not tarry.” Believers are thus exhorted to be patient until the coming of Christ. But why point them to the coming of Christ if their real hope was something to occur seven years earlier?

“Be patient then, brethren, unto the COMING of the Lord” (James 5:7). Again, why exhort the brethren to be patient unto the COMING of the Lord, if a secret rapture before his coming was when they would be gathered unto him?

Jesus said: “Occupy till I COME” (Lk. 19:13). But how could the church occupy until he COMES, if the church will be taken away seven years before his coming?

Paul speaks of Christians as “waiting for the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 1:7). If Paul believed Christians would be caught up to heaven in a secret rapture seven years before the Lord’s COMING, why didn’t he speak of Christians as waiting for that? Why would he tell them to wait for something that would take place seven years after they had already been raptured? Obviously, to Paul, the coming of the Lord and the rapture were considered as one and the same event.

And finally, Jesus said: “I will COME again, and receive you unto myself” (John 14:3). Plainly, it is when Jesus COMES that he receives his people unto himself. It does not say he receives them and then seven years later he comes. The receiving is not seven years before his coming.

Such expressions as these we have given — be ready for the coming of the Lord, watch for his coming, be patient for his coming, waiting for his coming, preserved unto his coming, occupy until he comes, etc. — all show that it is when Christ COMES that believers are gathered to meet the Lord. In view of this, the concept that the rapture is a separate event from the COMING of the Lord is simply not true. The rapture of believers to meet the Lord in the air and the coming of the Lord are one and the same event.

 

[pablope]

I understand the great white throne judgement to be at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus

• the millennial reign coming after the rapture and the first resurrection of Christians where
  we meet Jesus in the air.

What does “meet” mean in the Biblical context?

1. Coming “For” and Coming “With” the Saints

the-highway.com/rapture_Woodrow3.html

The rapture passage, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, says that believers will be “caught up . . . in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.” This verse explains WHERE believers will meet the Lord. The place of meeting will be just above the earth — in the clouds, in the air. There is nothing in this verse to indicate that Christ will then turn around and take the church to heaven.

Notice that believers will rise to “MEET” the Lord. The word that is here translated “meet” is a word that was used in reference to the coming of a king or governor to visit a city. As he approached, the citizens would go out to meet him and then escort him on the last part of his journey into the city. We believe it has precisely that same meaning here. As the Lord descends from heaven, believers will rise “to meet the Lord in the air”, in order to come with him as he continues to earth.1

The word “meet” in this verse is apantesis. It is used in two other passages which we will now consider to see exactly how this word was used in the scriptures:

First: Matthew 25:1,6: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to MEET the bridegroom . . . And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to MEET him.”

The plain and simp1e truth is that when the bridegroom approached, they went out to meet him so as to escort him back to where they had been waiting — to the place where the marriage would be held. They went out to “meet” him and after meeting him returned “with him.” Notice how the word “meet” was used.

Second: Acts 28:14-16: “And so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to MEET us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns. . . And when we came to Rome . . .” Here the same point is seen. As Paul journeyed to Rome, certain brethren came to meet him and then accompanied him as he entered the city. It does not say that Paul got almost to Rome and then took these brethren back to where he had been. Again, if this had been the case, he would have been coming to meet them, instead of them going out to meet him!

Yet this is exactly the kind of “proof” that is offered for the idea of two second comings of Christ. We are told that since the saints will come “with” Christ, that in going out to “meet” him they must be taken back to where he was, wait there for a period of time, so as to come “with” him!

We turn now to Jude 14, the key verse which speaks of the Lord as coming WITH his saints. There are good reasons for believing that those who are here mentioned as coming with the Lord are ANGELS, not men! If this is true, then the argument that there must be a separate coming for the saints (since Christ will come with the saints) is left without any foundation whatsoever. Let us then take a closer look at this verse.

“Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints” (Jude 14). The word that is translated saints is “hagios” which means simply “holy”, or in this case, “holy [ones].” (The word “holy” that appears many times in the New Testament, with only a few exceptions, is always translated from this word.) There is absolutely nothing in this word itself to indicate who these holy ones are. The term could refer to either men or angels, depending on the context. In this case, we believe the reference is to angels. The Pulpit Commentary says: “The ‘ten thousands of his saints’ is better rendered ‘ten thousands of his holy ones’ . . . For the ‘holy ones’ here intended are the angels.”3

To sum it up then, Jude 14 speaks of the Lord’s coming with his holy ones. That the reference is to angels in this instance (and not men) is indicated by the words of Jesus when he used the same term in connection with the angels that will accompany him at his coming. The expression “ten thousands of saints” when used in Deuteronomy had reference to angels. And the context in Jude shows that these beings are associated with the Lord in executing flaming judgment upon the ungodly. These things all Imply that the reference is to angels that will come with Christ when he returns. However, as we mentioned earlier, our general argument — that there is one Second Coming of Christ (not two) — is not dependent upon this point.

 

[Cat_Herder]

It is from scripture

Well, there you go again.

WHAT clear Scripture?! That is what is so frustrating. You keep saying there is clear Scripture saying this when there isn’t. Let’s look carefully at Revelation 20 again.
…
The ones who are reigning with Christ are in Heaven, not on Earth. There is nothing here that says that Christ returns to Earth during the thousand year period. Those who are resurrected reign with Christ, **but it does not say that this reign occurs on Earth. ** You are reading this into the text.

In doing so you must also read an END to Christ’s earthly reign into the text. And the fact that you can do that with a straight face is shocking. So who causes Jesus to cease to be Lord when the thousand years are over? Who lets the devil go free? Why would a good and loving God allow this to happen?

Here’s another problem with your interpretations. What does it mean that those who share in the first resurrection will be PRIESTS of Jesus? Isn’t your position that his once for all sacrifice completes any need for a priesthood? Or are you finally acknowledging the reality of the Catholic priesthood–and Christ’s Eucharistic reign?

 

[charles_allan]

So you are saying that Jesus reigns in heaven for 1000 years while the earth just carries on as usual ???

 

[psearcher]

See 1 Thessalonians 4:17–Will be caught up together–from the Latin verb repiemur literally snatched up or carried off. Paul is basing his language on Daniel 7, 13-17 and the fact that Jesus was raised from the dead. The non-Catholic mis-interpretation results from this as well as the symbolic Revelation12:5. If Paul were alive today he probably would different modern day symbolism for the second coming.