Satan is not bound in the abyss yet - paul clearly tells us he roams the earth seeking who he may destroy. The principalities and powers of the air are active - only the armour of God can defeat them - eg the sword of the spirit which is scripture. At the start of the 1000 yrs reign of Jesus Satan is bound.[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:2-6[/BIBLEDRB]
Right here is today. The thousand years is the age of the Church. Those who were resurrected and reign are the Saints. This is what happens next:
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:7-15[/BIBLEDRB]
There’s nothing about Christ reigning on this earth. Instead He conquers the world, the world ends and a new world begins which He reigns over.
I guess you missed this.Satan is not bound in the abyss yet
So what you are saying is that Jesus conquers satan and establishes an earthly kingdom where Jesus reigns for a thousand years… but then Jesus gets bored and lets satan go and cause a little havoc.
- paul clearly tells us he roams the earth seeking who he may destroy. The principalities and powers of the air are active - only the armour of God can defeat them - eg the sword of the spirit which is scripture. At the start of the 1000 yrs reign of Jesus Satan is bound.
Revelation 20 says this : Rev 20:1-3-AND I SAW AN ANGEL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, HAVING THE KEY OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (or Abyss) AND A GREAT CHAIN IN HIS HAND. AND HE LAID HOLD ON (or seized) THE DRAGON, THAT OLD (or ancient) SERPENT, WHICH IS THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, AND BOUND (or chained) HIM (up) A THOUSAND YEARS, AND CAST (or threw) HIM INTO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (or Abyss), AND SHUT HIM UP (or locked it), AND SET A SEAL UPON HIM, (so) THAT HE SHOULD DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE, TILL THE THOUSAND YEARS SHOULD BE FULFILLED (or were over).I guess you missed this.
So what you are saying is that Jesus conquers satan and establishes an earthly kingdom where Jesus reigns for a thousand years… but then Jesus gets bored and lets satan go and cause a little havoc.
Baloney.
Notice… it is “forever and ever.” Not for a thousand years. Thus, Revelation 20 cannot mean what you want it to mean.
Once the thousand years are fulfilled, Satan will be loosed from his prison for a little while.
Rev 20:3-AND AFTER THAT HE MUST BE LOOSED (or set free) A LITTLE SEASON (or a little while, or time).
Rev 20:7-AND WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED (or are over), SATAN (the Adversary) SHALL BE LOOSED (or released) OUT OF HIS PRISON.You are saying that Christ reigns for a thousand years, stops reigning, then starts reigning again. So, why does He stop reigning? Who lets the devil go free? The all-good and loving God? Obviously not.Revelation 20 says this : Rev 20:1-3-AND I SAW AN ANGEL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, HAVING THE KEY OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (or Abyss) AND A GREAT CHAIN IN HIS HAND. AND HE LAID HOLD ON (or seized) THE DRAGON, THAT OLD (or ancient) SERPENT, WHICH IS THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, AND BOUND (or chained) HIM (up) A THOUSAND YEARS, AND CAST (or threw) HIM INTO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (or Abyss), AND SHUT HIM UP (or locked it), AND SET A SEAL UPON HIM, (so) THAT HE SHOULD DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE, TILL THE THOUSAND YEARS SHOULD BE FULFILLED (or were over).
I did not say Jesus got bored but you did .Code:Once the thousand years are fulfilled, Satan will be loosed from his prison for a little while. Rev 20:3-AND AFTER THAT HE MUST BE LOOSED (or set free) A LITTLE SEASON (or a little while, or time). Rev 20:7-AND WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED (or are over), SATAN (the Adversary) SHALL BE LOOSED (or released) OUT OF HIS PRISON.
No where did I say Jesus stops reigning - but you said it - I didn’t -You are saying that Christ reigns for a thousand years, stops reigning, then starts reigning again. So, why does He stop reigning? Who lets the devil go free? The all-good and loving God? Obviously not.
Now, now East, you know in your heart of hearts that isn’t true. TSK! TSK! Actually, just the opposite is true. Evangelicals do stand firmly on Biblical theology and not on “religion.” We also know that to be approved by God we must “rightly divide the Word of Truth.” Our Lord Jesus Christ is coming in the air [soon] to catch us up, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I do hope that you take comfort in 1 Thess. 4:18 and 5:9.You never hear theology from premillenialists. Only unspiritual religous rhetoric. It’s just carnal minded garbage.
You said it right here (bold added):No where did I say Jesus stops reigning - but you said it - I didn’t -
The Bible does NOT say that Jesus’s reign will be limited to a thousand years, followed by an interregnum in which the devil wreaks havoc, and then an eternal reign. YOU are the one saying this.It is the Bible that says Jesus will visibly reign ON EARTH for a thousand years with a rod of iron.
By “biblical theology” you mean that Jesus supposedly allowed His Church to fall into “religious” apostasy in the 4th century and supposedly allowed billions of people to go to hell until some reformer discovered “biblical theology” so that people could be saved again. That’s baloney and you know it, and I’ve explained it here and many times over.Now, now East, you know in your heart of hearts that isn’t true. TSK! TSK! Actually, just the opposite is true. Evangelicals do stand firmly on Biblical theology and not on “religion.” We also know that to be approved by God we must “rightly divide the Word of Truth.” Our Lord Jesus Christ is coming in the air [soon] to catch us up, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I do hope that you take comfort in 1 Thess. 4:18 and 5:9.
Have a fantastic day in the Lord.
QC
Charles: I stand with you. Those who deny that our Lord Jesus Christ will ever return to earth are forced into a “spiritualization” of clear Scripture that teaches that our Lord Jesus Christ will return [2nd advent] to earth to sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem and rule and reign over Israel and the nations for 1,000 years. The 12 apostles of the circumcision will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel at this time [Mt. 19:28]. The spiritualization of Scripture began in the garden with the god [small ‘g’] of this world and is alive and well today in our churches.It is the Bible that says Jesus will visibly reign ON EARTH for a thousand years with a rod of iron. It is not me saying it but the Bible.
All Christians are waiting for Jesus’s return to earth - He does not return to Rome but Jerusalem to reign for the millennium.
You said it right here (bold added):
The Bible does NOT say that Jesus’s reign will be limited to a thousand years, followed by an interregnum in which the devil wreaks havoc, and then an eternal reign. YOU are the one saying this.
It is not limited to 1000 years but Rev 20 describes this 1000 yr part of His earthly reign - where Satan is bound. You can’t take away from the words of Revelation.
By “biblical theology” you mean that Jesus supposedly allowed His Church to fall into “religious” apostasy in the 4th century and supposedly allowed billions of people to go to hell until some reformer discovered “biblical theology” so that people could be saved again. That’s baloney and you know it, and I’ve explained it here and many times over.
Both of you have such a low image of Jesus Christ. You make Him out to be an arbitrary and capricious ruler Who just doesn’t care about the needs of His creatures, Who arbitrarily makes “dispensations” that set men up to fail… I know Jesus Christ personally and He is NOTHING like what you people make Him out to be. He is a loving and perfect God Who would never do the things you claim. But you have to turn Him into a false Christ in order to validate your own belief systems, and that saddens me.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.WHAT clear Scripture?! That is what is so frustrating. You keep saying there is clear Scripture saying this when there isn’t. Let’s look carefully at Revelation 20 again.Charles: I stand with you. Those who deny that our Lord Jesus Christ will ever return to earth are forced into a “spiritualization” of clear Scripture that teaches that our Lord Jesus Christ will return [2nd advent] to earth to sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem and rule and reign over Israel and the nations for 1,000 years. The 12 apostles of the circumcision will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel at this time [Mt. 19:28]. The spiritualization of Scripture began in the garden with the god [small ‘g’] of this world and is alive and well today in our churches.
QC
Now notice the bold parts that I have emphasized. The ones who are reigning with Christ are in Heaven, not on Earth. There is nothing here that says that Christ returns to Earth during the thousand year period. Those who are resurrected reign with Christ, **but it does not say that this reign occurs on Earth. ** You are reading this into the text.Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Revelation 20:1-10 ESV)
The early church was pre-millennial. Augustine picked up the allegorical approach from the Jews of Alexander and gave birth to the heresy known as a-millennialism. BTW, the only “saints” known in Scripture are the believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul addresses many of his epistles to the “saints.”You demand that all Scripture have a physical fulfillment in the earthly world when this world isn’t even real to begin with…
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]
I, me, my ego. Never mind that amillennialism was and is the position of the Church for over 1600 years. You say you know better than all the saints. Yawn.
Hello Cajun from the Arkansas Quickcat, I pray that you and family are well and happy in the Lord Jesus Christ. Can you tell me what is the gospel by which one is saved?What I find amazing about this view of the Millenium is that these people are saying that amils don’t believe in the Second Coming, but we clearly do believe in it. And that Jesus will judge all men and bring His eternal Kingdom to the Earth so that it fills heaven and earth. But we deny the carnal understanding of it that is so prevalent in certain segments of the evangelical/fundamentalist churches. And I consider myself evangelical, in that I believe in the Good News of redemption through the Blood of Christ.
The early church was pre-millennial. Augustine picked up the allegorical approach from the Jews of Alexander and gave birth to the heresy known as a-millennialism. BTW, the only “saints” known in Scripture are the believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul addresses many of his epistles to the “saints.”
QC
Here are QuickCat’s claims:Hello Cajun from the Arkansas Quickcat, I pray that you and family are well and happy in the Lord Jesus Christ. Can you tell me what is the gospel by which one is saved?
Thanks,
QC
NO, abortion came from the god [small ‘g’] of this world-- the devil-- and the Catholic Church is trying to fight the devil and all his lies, especially abortion, and is suffering for it. Jesus told us that it is not possible for the devil to be on both sides in that battle.The spiritualization of Scripture began in the garden with the god [small ‘g’] of this world and is alive and well today in our churches.
QC
Hey man, you set up so many “straw dummies” that I did not say and do not teach. Not nice at all. I am not a pawn, but I am a bond-slave to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my Savior and my Lord. As a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ I [and all other believers] are called to be His ambassadors in Satan’s world. We are to proclaim the gospel of reconciliation to a lost and dying world. That gospel is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Further, we are told what occurs the moment we believe in Him in Ephesians 1:13 and 1 Cor. 12:13.Here are QuickCat’s claims:
Claim 1: “Belief” in the “gospel by which one is saved” rather than in Catholicism supposedly saves a person.
Claim 2: The “gospel by which one is saved” was present in the “early church” but then Augustine supposedly “gave birth” to Catholicism.
Result: QuickCat claims that between Augustine (430 AD) and the rise of modern premillennial dispensationalism (1800s), no one has the “gospel by which one is saved.” So, according to QuickCat, Jesus Christ allowed His Church to go into apostasy for over a thousand years and billions upon billions of people went to hell.
But the Bible says:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
Thus, what QuickCat has claimed is impossible–it is God’s Will that ALL MEN have the ability to come to knowledge of the truth. And yes, this is that great apostasy fallacy we see time and again, and which I have repeatedly addressed here and elsewhere.
So, QuickCat, you’ve turned Jesus from a Savior into a failure. And that is why no one takes you seriously. We have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and we know He would NEVER do what you are trying to frame Him as doing. Moreover, the BIBLE says He would NEVER will what you have framed Him as willing.
Moreover, your claim that the early Church was premillennial is a gross distortion of the facts. There is a world of difference between your pre-tribulation rapturist premillennialism and the chiliasm of Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, and Apollinaris of Laodicea. None of them believed in a pre-tribulation rapture. Their belief was much closer to postmillennialism than what you call premillennialism. Go look it up.
But here is the real question:
**Why are you using all this time and energy to attack the Catholic Church? **Have you even noticed that, as has been widely reported, the Catholic Church is being persecuted by the government for being pro-life? Abortion is unquestionably satanic; it is the child sacrifice and molech worship which God condemned (Ex. 20:13; Lev. 20:4-5). Jesus said:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 12:26[/BIBLEDRB]
So, if satan cannot stand against satan, then how can you say this:
NO, abortion came from the god [small ‘g’] of this world-- the devil-- and the Catholic Church is trying to fight the devil and all his lies, especially abortion, and is suffering for it. Jesus told us that it is not possible for the devil to be on both sides in that battle.
So… Which side are you on? Whose side are you on?
Right now, you’re a pawn in someone else’s game. But you don’t have to stay that way. Swallow your pride, pray to the Divine Mercy, and open your eyes. There is help available at any Catholic parish anywhere in the world.
It means that they will reign with Jesus - so you now admit to this reign.WHAT clear Scripture?! That is what is so frustrating. You keep saying there is clear Scripture saying this when there isn’t. Let’s look carefully at Revelation 20 again.
Now notice the bold parts that I have emphasized. The ones who are reigning with Christ are in Heaven, not on Earth. There is nothing here that says that Christ returns to Earth during the thousand year period. Those who are resurrected reign with Christ, **but it does not say that this reign occurs on Earth. ** You are reading this into the text.
In doing so you must also read an END to Christ’s earthly reign into the text. And the fact that you can do that with a straight face is shocking. So who causes Jesus to cease to be Lord when the thousand years are over? Who lets the devil go free? Why would a good and loving God allow this to happen?
Here’s another problem with your interpretations. What does it mean that those who share in the first resurrection will be PRIESTS of Jesus? Isn’t your position that his once for all sacrifice completes any need for a priesthood? Or are you finally acknowledging the reality of the Catholic priesthood–and Christ’s Eucharistic reign?
Yes, as you are right now. This is the millennium. You haven’t noticed that the Flood is over because you’re not on board the Ark.So you believe in a millennial reign where you say Jesus is in heaven with the saints for a thousand years - but what then happens on earth - do we just continue as we are ???
So you are claiming that the devil has no power during the millennium, but then you say:It is obvious from NT scripture that Satan is not bound in the abyss yet - He is alive and able to deceive plenty and seeking who he may destroy - he cannot do this until the end of the millennium - so therefore the millennium is still to come.
… so you say that there is death during the millennium. Well, if the devil has no power during the millennium because he’s bound in the bottomless pit, then why are people dying during the millennium? Why are you saying that Jesus Christ will reign over an earthly kingdom in which death still exists? Isn’t His saving work complete?Isaiah 65 comments on life expectancy during the Messianic reign 'No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days, for the child shall die one hundred years old, but the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed, (v20) and ‘for as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people.’ (v22) This cannot relate to heaven as there is no death in heaven
All this stuff you copied from the website says that various Old Testament passages apply to your supposed future millennial kingdom. But the Bible verses themselves DO NOT say anything about a millennium.THE THOUSAND YEARS OF BLISS HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET ON EARTH :-
copied from website :-
According to who–God or man? Micah 4 doesn’t say anything about a millennium either.Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 instruct us concerning the peaceful living conditions during the millennium.
WHY must we conclude that? Don’t you have to establish from the Bible that there will first be a millennium in the AND that this millennium will be an earthly reign? Where does it say that there will be an earthly reign? Not here and not in Revelation 20–you are adding to Scripture something that is not there!So we must conclude it is a future event and relates to the millennium.
Again, WHY do you say it relates to the millennium? It doesn’t say that during the millennium, “the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb” – only the quoted part. You ADDED “during the millennium” to the Bible.Isaiah 11 and 65 teach us regarding the restoration of the animal kingdom which shall be similar to the Edenic conditions whereby green herbs where given to animals for food (see Gen 1v30) ‘The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them’ (Isaiah 11v6) Is this happening now? No. Why? Because it relates to the millennium!
You should have read a little before that.Isaiah 65 comments on life expectancy during the Messianic reign 'No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days, for the child shall die one hundred years old, but the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed, (v20) and ‘for as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people.’ (v22) This cannot relate to heaven as there is no death in heaven and no-one I am aware of is outliving trees with life expectancies similar to the Genesis account!
Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible:we may remark, 1. That there is no reason to suppose that it will be literally fulfilled even in the millenium. If it is to be regarded as literally to be fulfilled, then for the same reason we are to suppose that in that time the nature of the lion will be literally changed, and that he will eat straw like the ox, and that the nature of the wolf and the lamb will be so far changed that they shall lie down together Isaiah 65:25. But there is no reason to suppose this
This whole millennium thing has more holes than swiss cheese and even non-Catholics acknowledge this!nor an old man that hath not filled his days; who, though he may in some sense, or in comparison of others, be said to be old, yet has not arrived to the full term of man’s life, threescore years and ten, or more; for it seems, by what follows, as if the term of human life will be lengthened in the latter day, and reach in common to a hundred years; so that as long life is always reckoned a temporal happiness, among the rest that shall be enjoyed, this will be one in the latter day; and which is to be understood not of the Millennium state