What is the "Rapture" and is it true?

[QuickCat]

The devil’s strategy could be to make the world believe that those caught up in the rapture
were abducted by aliens.
I also believe that the thousand years is a real event where Jesus reigns from Jerusalem with a rod of iron this time. Isaiah prophecies on this "where the lion lies down with the lamb and a man one hundred years old is considered young.
At the end of the 1000 years reign a new heaven and earth is created after the final rebellion
of mankind against The Lord. When the rapture will happen nobody knows except God.

Right on, Charles! You got it right!
QC

 

[QuickCat]

Can you tell me where in the Bible that He actually said that is where He wil return??
From what I understand…it does say he will come down with the trumph blast and the dead in Christ will rise first…but down from Heaven does not mean …to earth. He will have a 1000 years reign…and peace will be the order of the day. It’s hard not reading something into a verse…but we are to take is as it is…not added to or taken from…

Zechariah 14:4 - “And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives…” Cf Acts 1:9-11 where the “two men” speak of His return to earth. You are right about His return in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He comes “in the clouds” to catch us away and we will RISE to meet Him in the air. He doesn’t return to earth at that time. Is this the time that “…the God of Peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly…” Romans 16:20.
QC

 

[QuickCat]

Yes I think as you say the rapture is different from the Second Coming and the rapture will be before the Second Coming.

Exactly! Many will quote verses inre to the 2nd coming and reference them as the rapture. Bad policy! Two entirely different events. If we place the rapture verses in one column and the 2nd coming verses in another column we can see the contrast. I may do that later.
QC

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Zechariah 14:4 - “And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives…” Cf Acts 1:9-11 where the “two men” speak of His return to earth. You are right about His return in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He comes “in the clouds” to catch us away and we will RISE to meet Him in the air. He doesn’t return to earth at that time. Is this the time that “…the God of Peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly…” Romans 16:20.
QC

That is where I disagree. We rise to meet Him in the air then immediately return to the Earth. If you study the word used to describe this event you will see it refers to what happens when a general returns from a victory. The people come out to greet him and then return immedietly to the city with him to celebrate. There is absolutely NOTHING in Thessalonians or anywhere else in Sacred Scripture that would make me think otherwise. This is a NEW doctrine of men and NOT taught by any Catholic or Protestant theolgian before the 1800s. Period

 

[East_Anglican]

East Anglican - does this mean that you think Jesus does not return to earth and stays in Heaven forever ?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9934470&postcount=36

 

[Zooey]

There can not be a literal millennial reign of Jesus because he’s reigning now and he’s the same yesterday, today and forever.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

You are buying in to a view of the Second Coming/Rapture that was unheard of for 1900 years after Christ. Your personal interpretation of these verses is completely off.

:sad_yes:

Yes I think as you say the rapture is different from the Second Coming and the rapture will be before the Second Coming.

The so-called “rapture” is false doctrine, based on the ramblings of a young woman who had a vivid imagination & no knowledge of the Bible.
There is no rapture.

I hold to the view held by the majority of theologians down through the centuries, both Catholic and Protestant. It is known as amillenialism. Jesus is reigning from heaven NOW, and that is the millenium. At the end Satan is loosed to deceive the nations and then comes the Second Coming and the Last Judgement. I do believe that Jesus will rule from a renewed Earth- the New Earth. But that is the Eternal Kingdom, not the Millenium. Read the writings of Augustine, Aquinas, John Calvin, etc. and they are ALL amillenial in their view. Calvin went so far as to call premillanillism “Jewish fables”. I gave up the popular pretrib view decades ago and do not regret having seen the truth as taught by the Church since the earliest Fathers.

 

[charles_allan]

East Anglican why can you not answer whether or not you think Jesus will return to earth.

Dont give websites just answer the question yes or no.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Charles, you were asked…

Can you tell me where in the Bible that He actually said that is where He wil return??
From what I understand…it does say he will come down with the trumph blast and the dead in Christ will rise first…but down from Heaven does not mean …to earth. He will have a 1000 years reign…and peace will be the order of the day. It’s hard not reading something into a verse…but we are to take is as it is…not added to or taken from…

… in other words, where in the Bible does it say anything about Jesus reigning from Jerusalem. You responded:

And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men [angels] stood by them in white robes, and said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.’ Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away. (Acts 1:4-12).

I am not reading anything that is not quite clear - the whole Bible points to the 2nd coming of Jesus to the earth - to stay. Jesus will reign from Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon .

That verse does not say anything about Jesus reigning anywhere or even where He will go. All it does say is that His return will be in glory and from the clouds.

Simon : And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14 : 4

So you are taking an Old Testament prophecy which already was fulfilled in 33 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and applying it to the future, when it is impossible for this Scripture to refer to the future. Look at the rest of the chapter:

[BIBLEDRB]Zechariah 14:11[/BIBLEDRB]

If this prophecy was referring to an earthly Jerusalem in the future, it would be false–as I’ve pointed out, we are told quite clearly that the entire earthly world will be destroyed by fire in 2 Peter 3, and that includes all earthly cities. A future earthly Jerusalem therefore will not “sit secure” forever, nor would it ever avoid being “anathema” or “doomed.” The only way that this Jerusalem can endure forever is if it is the spiritual Jerusalem referred to in Galatians 4:26 and Heb 12:22:

[BIBLEDRB]Gal 4:26[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 12:22[/BIBLEDRB]

This Spiritual Jerusalem is, was, and always will be, the Catholic Church. And I will prove that with REAL prophecy:

[BIBLEDRB]Daniel 2:32-45[/BIBLEDRB]

There is universal agreement among Catholic and Protestant biblical scholars (see for yourself) that each segment of the statue (gold, silver, brass/bronze, iron, mixed iron/clay) represents a particular classical kingdom:

Gold: Babylon
Silver: Persian, i.e. the kingdom of Cyrus
Brass: Greek, i.e. the Hellinization led by Alexander the Great
Iron: Roman, i.e. that of the Caesars who controlled Judea at the time of Christ. The mixed iron/clay legs represent the Roman Empire after its division. The divided kingdom immediately succeeds the iron kingdom, and thus, there can be no other fit as Rome had no permanent successor.

And finally, there is that stone that smashes them all. This is obviously Jesus Christ, but that stone is also a kingdom in its own right which then absorbs the other kingdoms and spreads throughout the whole world. Now, verse 44 rules out any possibility that Christ’s kingdom comes after the end of the Roman Empire. The end of the empire is dated one of two ways: If you go by the Western Roman Empire, that would be 376 AD, the deposition of Romulus Augustulus, the last Western Emperor. If you include the Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire), the date is 1453 AD, the fall of Constantinople. The Protestant Reformation does not begin until the mid-1500s – and thus, it is impossible for Christ’s Kingdom to be any Protestant church.

 

[charles_allan]

Zechariah 14.4 is not about the Romans - it is clearly about Jesus coming back to the Mt of Olives to put his enemies under his feet at the battle of Armageddon.
I still find it hard to get an answer on whether you and Anglican believe that Jesus will return.

You actually think that Jesus will not Reign when he comes back ??? What do you think Jesus will do then ?
Peter’s letter refers to the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus - when the inhabitants of the earth rebel again. Christ’s kingdom will be made up of his true followers - His bride - not exclusively any denomination - its not your badge but what we have thought said and done- this worries me greatly so I am not holier than you by any means.

I copied this but agree with it :-
If the thousand years begins with the resurrection of the just, the question is, When does this good resurrection take place? When we find the answer, then we’ll understand what initiates the thousand years.

Scripture teaches that the return of Jesus Christ results in the resurrection of His saints. In 1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-55, Paul tells us plainly that it is at “His coming,” when “the trumpet sounds,” that “the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Paul also wrote, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

According to Paul, “the dead in Christ shall rise first.” This is the same as “the first resurrection” depicted in Revelation 20:6.

In summary, Revelation 20:4-6 begins the 1000 years with the resurrection of the saints. 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 teach that the resurrection of the saints, who are called “the dead in Christ,” occurs when Jesus Christ returns. Thus it is the return of Jesus Christ, when His saints are resurrected, that marks the beginning of the Millennium.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I have found that someone so entranced in a premillenial understanding of Prophecy can not be convinced he is wrong. If you are open to other views then read books by others- “The Rapture Trap” “The Case for Amillenialism” and there are many others that show that the popular pretrib, premil view is NOT in accordance to Scripture or Tradition. I have also found that those who hold to this view have NEVER read an opposing view and act like their understanding is the only possible interpretation. I have read books from all views. I bbelieve the amil view to be the most Biblical, but have no problem with the historic premil view. This view is almost identical to mine, except for its understanding of the Millenium. The view most popular today, especially in certain segments of Protestant fundamentalism, is a new and novel idea, and as such automatically suspect. I am really surprised that a Catholic is teaching such a novel view. Seems the Church needs to better cathecise on this subject.

 

[East_Anglican]

You never hear theology from premillenialists. Only unspiritual religous rhetoric. It’s just carnal minded garbage.

 

[QuickCat]

I don’t subscribe to the pre trib view since no one knows when the rapture will happen - but
I don’t see anything in scripture which says the 1000 yr reign is symbolic of the present age

• it is quite clear to me anyway that it is a future event where Jesus returns to the Mt of Olives
  and reigns for 1000 yrs with a rod of iron. This is a sabbath rest of 1000 yrs where the lion will lie down with the lamb.

The tribulation period is when God pours out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. The Body of Christ is not subject to the wrath of God - 1 Thess. 5:9. We will be “caught up” prior to the tribulation. After the tribulation period, the Lord Jesus Christ will return to earth to set up that kingdom long promised to Israel and that the 11 were looking for when they asked the question: “Will you, at this time, restore AGAIN the kingdom to Israel?” The Lord Jesus Christ had opened their understanding about this kingdom in His 40 days of teaching them after His resurrection. [Acts 1:6]
QC

 

[QuickCat]

I have found that someone so entranced in a premillenial understanding of Prophecy can not be convinced he is wrong. If you are open to other views then read books by others- “The Rapture Trap” “The Case for Amillenialism” and there are many others that show that the popular pretrib, premil view is NOT in accordance to Scripture or Tradition. I have also found that those who hold to this view have NEVER read an opposing view and act like their understanding is the only possible interpretation. I have read books from all views. I bbelieve the amil view to be the most Biblical, but have no problem with the historic premil view. This view is almost identical to mine, except for its understanding of the Millenium. The view most popular today, especially in certain segments of Protestant fundamentalism, is a new and novel idea, and as such automatically suspect. I am really surprised that a Catholic is teaching such a novel view. Seems the Church needs to better cathecise on this subject.

And I have found that those who are “entranced” with the A-mill view are much prone to the “spiritualization” of Scripture. I have a library of over 3,500 volumes. I have studied the A-Mill position extensively and found it to be a system of spiritualizing Scriptures. That position does great violence to the Word.
QC

 

[Cat_Herder]

Zechariah 14.4 is not about the Romans - it is clearly about Jesus coming back to the Mt of Olives to put his enemies under his feet at the battle of Armageddon.

Zech. 14:11 makes that impossible.

 

[Cat_Herder]

And I have found that those who are “entranced” with the A-mill view are much prone to the “spiritualization” of Scripture. I have a library of over 3,500 volumes. I have studied the A-Mill position extensively and found it to be a system of spiritualizing Scriptures. That position does great violence to the Word.
QC

You demand that all Scripture have a physical fulfillment in the earthly world when this world isn’t even real to begin with…

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 2:14[/BIBLEDRB]

I have studied the A-Mill position extensively and found it to be a system of spiritualizing Scriptures.

I, me, my ego. Never mind that amillennialism was and is the position of the Church for over 1600 years. You say you know better than all the saints. Yawn.

 

[charles_allan]

All I can ask is do you believe that Jesus will return to the earth ?

 

[charles_allan]

How can the return of Jesus be “reductional”.
I ask once again will Jesus return to the earth ? yes or no

 

[Cat_Herder]

All I can ask is do you believe that Jesus will return to the earth ?

[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:2-6[/BIBLEDRB]
Right here is today. The thousand years is the age of the Church. Those who were resurrected and reign are the Saints. This is what happens next:
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:7-15[/BIBLEDRB]

There’s nothing about Christ reigning on this earth. Instead He conquers the world, the world ends and a new world begins which He reigns over.

 

[Ogreater]

The “Rapture” is just one of many false and heretical interpretations of the “Millenium.”

The Church has no problem with a genuine, unmodified notion of the “Millennium.” The Chuch has told us what this Millennium is NOT. But she has not yet ruled definitively on what this Millennium exactly IS. Then Cardinal Ratzinger has stated that the matter is still open to discussion and that “the Holy See has not yet made any definitive pronouncement in this regard.” What the Holy See has definitively pronounced is an anathema against a “false” millennium, known as millenarianism: a heresy accepted by some who professed a belief in a carnal and visible reign of Christ for a period lasting *literally *1000 years.

However, never has the Holy See condemned the Apostolic Father’s Tradition in this regard. Indeed, the Apostolic Fathers themselves - Papias and St. Justin Martyr, for instance - bear witness to the orthodoxy of their unmodified doctrines handed on to them from the Apostles.

In The Dialogue with Tryhpo, St. Justin Martyr says:

These are the words of Isaiah concerning the millennium: “For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered…but they shall be glad and rejoice in these things, which I create. For, behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and my people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall no more be an infant of days there, nor an old man that shall not fill up his days; for the child shall die a hundred years old…And they shall build houses and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruits of them, and drink the wine…For as the days of the tree of life, so shall be the days of My people, and the works of their hands shall be multiplied. My elect shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth children for a curse; for they shall be a righteous seed blessed by the Lord, and their posterity with them. And it shall come to pass that before they call, I will hear…Then the wolves and lambs shall feed together, and the lion shall eat like the ox, and the serpent shall eat earth like bread. They shall not hurt nor destroy on my holy mountain, saith the Lord…” (cf. Is. 65:17-25). Now…we understand that a period of one thousand years is indicated in symbolic language. When it was said of Adam that “in the day that he eateth of the tree, in that he shall die,” we knew he was not a thousand years old [Adam lived to be 963]. We also believe that the words, “The day of the Lord is a thousand years,” also led some to the same conclusion. Moreover, a man among us named John, one of Christ’s Apostles, received and foretold that the followers of Christ would dwell in Jerusalem for a thousand years, and that afterwards the universal and, in short, everlasting resurrection and judgement would take place. To this our Lord himself testified when He said: “They shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, being sons of God, that is of the resurrection.” [Note: Justin Martyr’s language following the word “afterwards” refers to the New Jerusalem, and not to the millennium.]

As St. Justin Martyr was born just one generation after the Apostles, his testimony, like that of Papias (the disciple of St. John), is significant for its orthodoxy and unmodified influence. This apostolic witness and doctrinal orthodoxy is further exemplified in the writings of St. Irenaeus. Irenaeus was schooled in his youth by St. Polycarp, the Apostolic Father who saw and listened to the Apostle John, and was later consecrated Bishop of Smyrna by St. John. The same truths pronounced by his predecessors come to light as he comments, in the Adversus Haereses, on Sacred Scripture:

So, the blessing foretold undoubtedly refers to the time of His Kingdom, when the just will rule on rising from the dead; when creation, reborn and freed from bondage, will yield an abundance of food of all kinds from the heaven’s dew and the fertility of the earth, just as the seniors recall. Those who saw John, the Lord’s disciple, [tell us] that they heard from him how the Lord taught and spoke about these times…Days will come when vines will grow each with ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs…then thousand clusters…ten thousand grains…And other fruits and seeds, and grass…And all the animals who use the products of the soil will be at peace and in harmony with one another, completely at man’s beck and call.

Tertullian, in his treatise* Against Marcion *,comments on this coming Millennium, also called the temporal kingdom or, in more recent language, the Era of Peace:

We do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem…We say that* this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings*, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost…Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process. * After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts [merits], there will ensue the destruction of the world* and the conflagration of all things at the judgement: we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels, even by the investiture of an incorruptible nature, and so be removed to that kingdom in Heaven [the New Jerusalem].

 

[Ogreater]

Surely the remarks by St Justin Martyr and Papias and Irenaeus should be part of Tradition. If so, why aren’t those remarks taken seriously today? Do we really believe that Jerusalem will be rebuilt so that the saints can live there for a thousand years? Or perhaps we think that old St John may have been going senile when he spoke of the fruitful vine?