What is the reaction of Conservative Traditional Catholics to the changes in the English Liturgy?

[MarkThompson]

Hahaha, we had a thread on this earlier. Google’s beta Latin-English translator kicks the tar out of ICEL.

Haha, not quite. I still get a kick out of the time when I entered “Resurrectio Christi” and it spat out “Peter Paul Reubens.”

 

[ProVobis]

Hahaha, we had a thread on this earlier. Google’s beta Latin-English translator kicks the tar out of ICEL.

It’s not really a translator but a search engine first. And if it can’t find the phrase anywhere it guesses at a translation. (Try reversing the words and see what I mean.) As people are most gullible to any translation, they usually accept a translation as gospel truth, notwithstanding a previous user might have entered erroneous data and even without a source. But then ICEL (or Cranmer and his Anglo-Saxon barbarians, for that matter) doesn’t/didn’t do much better than an “educated” guess either. And you know what they say about anything coming out of committees. Fortunately no translation can ever be infallible.

 

[Warrenton]

But many see the vernacular and facing the people going hand in hand. Would seem very unnatural to have one without the other. Just saying. My pastor tried it once at the Christmas midnight Mass and then later asked “What’s the point?” so the following year did the EF at the Christmas midnight Mass.

Until recently, the Anglican and Episcopalian services were vernacular ad orientem.

Like I said, hopefully all changes this time will be slow, so as not to alienate people. The priest might explain why the canon is being said toward the east. The collects epistles and the rest could still be said toward the congretation.

 

[laszlo]

Haha, not quite. I still get a kick out of the time when I entered “Resurrectio Christi” and it spat out “Peter Paul Reubens.”

Enter it again

translate.google.com/#la|en|Resurrectio%20Christi

it will bring up The Resurrection of Christ

‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ brings 'And with spirit your ’ (Apparently the makers of the program did not read the Syntactic Structures revolutionary study from Mr Chomsky)

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Or how about the strong “per omnia saecula saeculorum” that’s translated into some very weak, going-forward-only “world without end”? I never saw this as a trivial matter.

To be honest, I don’t get how “per omnia saecula saeculorum” (for all ages of ages) can be translated to “world without end.” Actually, world without end makes no sense to me. However, “forever and ever” does convey the meaning much better.

Then again, this usually only comes up for the Glory Be and I just say it in Latin to avoid confusion.

 

[MarkThompson]

Enter it again

translate.google.com/#la|en|Resurrectio%20Christi

it will bring up The Resurrection of Christ

‘Et cum spiritu tuo’ brings 'And with spirit your ’ (Apparently the makers of the program did not read the Syntactic Structures revolutionary study from Mr Chomsky)

Yes, I know that they fixed “Resurrectio Christi.” And, for me, “Et cum spiritu tuo” properly gives “And with your spirit,” so maybe these things change on a daily or hourly basis.

More to the topic, I do think that the refrain of “ICEL was totally incompetent; they don’t know anything about Latin, a first year Latin student could do better, LOL!” is unfortunate. They were very competent Latin translators, it’s just that their goal in translating/composing a Mass in English was very different from what we today think is important. I would think no one could seriously believe that ICEL arrived at “And also with you” through some kind of elementary translation blunder, but judging from how often I’ve heard variations on this theme I’m starting to suspect that there are some who do think this. (The others just use this refrain as an ad-hominem attack, which is not all that much better.)

The result of the confusion, of course, is that people wind up talking past each other and speaking about different things, each struggling to figure out how the other could be so obtuse as not to “get it.” Hence, “How could they have done such a bad job? Even Google can do better, haha!” But you evaluate a “good” or “bad job” on the basis of the goals that had been set ab initio. Whether you approve of those goals and their prioritization is a completely different issue, and this is why the “‘And also with you’ is just so obviously wrong, duh” crowd does not say anything useful. I disagree with the goals and methodology for translation that were set in 1969/70, but I can at least divorce that matter from the question of whether the translation is “good,” which is actually unanswerable until you have established a heuristic and benchmark. Unless, that is, you take the (very common and very modernist, in the bad sense, I hasten to say) emotivist view in which “good” =df. “I approve of this and you should too.”

 

[ProVobis]

Then again, this usually only comes up for the Glory Be and I just say it in Latin to avoid confusion.

That’s good because how it’s translated almost defines one’s theology.

Main article: Glory Be to the Father

The Gloria Patri, so named for its first two words in Latin, is commonly used as a doxology by Roman Catholics, Old Catholics, Independent Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and many Protestants including Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Reformed Baptists. It is called the “Lesser Doxology”, thus distinguished from the “Great Doxology” Gloria in Excelsis Deo, and is often called simply “the doxology”. As well as praising God, it was regarded as a short declaration of faith in the co-equality of the three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

The Latin text,

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in sæcula sæculorum. Amen.

is literally translated

Glory [be] to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, both now, and always, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

“Saecula saeculorum”, here rendered “ages of ages”, is the translation of what was probably a Semitic idiom, via Koine Greek, meaning “forever.” It is also rendered “world without end” in English, which has the same meaning. That phrase occurs in the King James Bible (cf. Eph. 3:21; Isa. 45:17). Similarly, “et semper” is often rendered “and ever shall be”, giving the more metrical English version

… As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

The common Liturgy of the Hours doxology, as approved by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, uses a different translation of the same Latin:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen.

The most commonly encountered Orthodox English version:

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now, and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen

The modern Anglican version (found in Common Worship) is slightly different:

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxology

 

[Elizabeth502]

IIRC, last Friday there was a special on EWTN regarding the changes, and I saw the whole thing. So far, I approve, because I much of this is restorative. The TV hour was well done. I unfortunately missed Colin Donovan’s radio program that day, which was also set to discuss the underlying theology. He announced that himself in a rare appearance on the TV station. Perhaps the radio program is downloadable.

 

[chrisb]

IIRC, last Friday there was a special on EWTN regarding the changes, and I saw the whole thing. So far, I approve, because I much of this is restorative. The TV hour was well done. I unfortunately missed Colin Donovan’s radio program that day, which was also set to discuss the underlying theology. He announced that himself in a rare appearance on the TV station. Perhaps the radio program is downloadable.

Yes, I watched that also and found it very restorative to the original Latin Text.

 

[ProVobis]

From the Council of Trent:

ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS

DOCTRINE

Being the sixth under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV., celebrated on the seventeenth day of September, MDLXII.

The sacred and holy, ecumenical and general Synod of Trent–lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein–to the end that the ancient, complete, and in every part perfect faith and doctrine touching the great mystery of the Eucharist may be retained in the holy Catholic Church; and may, all errors and heresies being repelled, be preserved in its own purity; (the Synod) instructed by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, teaches, declares; and decrees what follows, to be preached to the faithful, on the subject of the Eucharist, considered as being a true and singular sacrifice.
…

CHAPTER VIII.

On not celebrating the Mass every where in the vulgar tongue; the mysteries of the Mass to be explained to the people.

Although the mass contains great instruction for the faithful people, nevertheless, it has not seemed expedient to the Fathers, that it should be every where celebrated in the vulgar tongue. Wherefore, the ancient usage of each church, and the rite approved of by the holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all churches, being in each place retained; and, that the sheep of Christ may not suffer hunger, nor the little ones ask for bread, and there be none to break it unto them, the holy Synod charges pastors, and all who have the cure of souls, that they frequently, during the celebration of mass, expound either by themselves, or others, some portion of those things which are read at mass, and that, amongst the rest, they explain some mystery of this most holy sacrifice, especially on the Lord’s days and festivals.
…
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.

What the Council said should be obvious: Use vernacular to explain the Mass, not to use it IN the Mass exclusively, as the Reformers were doing it. Vatican II essentially said the same thing in different words.

 

[chrisb]

I will miss the hootnanny, hand clapping Glorias that I have been subjected to even less than I would miss a very bad cold.
If I were never again for the rest of my life to hear any Gloria other than Gregorian Chanted Glorias in Latin, it would not bother me one bit.
Every time I go to Mass at my local parish, I thank God that my hearing aid controller has a mute button.
The changes in the translations can only be an improvement.

Will there be only ‘one’ Gloria now? I have to say I’m all for that. This past Sunday’s Gloria was one of the one’s I most dislike because it doesn’t seem to glorify God at all.

 

[MarkThompson]

Will there be only ‘one’ Gloria now? I have to say I’m all for that. This past Sunday’s Gloria was one of the one’s I most dislike because it doesn’t seem to glorify God at all.

There will be (as there is now) only one text for the Gloria, but (as there has always been, and I mean for countless centuries) any number of musical settings for it. If the setting you dislike is being updated for the words of the new translation, then it will remain licit to use.

 

[Gregory_I]

THe Current settings do not seem to be updateable to the new translation, becasue just READING the new translation emphasizes a completely different rhythmical style.

 

[MarkThompson]

THe Current settings do not seem to be updateable to the new translation, becasue just READING the new translation emphasizes a completely different rhythmical style.

Actually, quite a few of the common current settings (Mass of Creation, Mass of Light, etc.) have already been updated for the new translation.

 

[James_Miller]

When I learned that the Latin Catholic Church was getting a new set of changes I assumed here comes more fighting back and forth. I don’t have to worry the Syro Malankara Catholic Church isn’t changing anything.

 

[JackQ]

I think I qualify for the title of ‘conservative traditional catholic’, despite being a catechumen. My politics are easily in line with those of Bossuet and de Maistre, and I detest all philosophical inquiry after Aquinas. I think women really ought to stay at home and bear children, and my taste in concert music hardly extends to years after 1910. You might call me a caricature of traditionalism, but there it is.

Now, nothing can be further from my affection than the 1973 translation of the Mass you’ve all had to suffer through for 35 years. It’s the most ungrammatical and bizarre communication between Latin and English I’ve ever seen. How do you start with “et cum spiritu tuo” et - and; cum - with; spiritu - spirit/soul; tuo - yours… and end up with “and also with you”, unless your purpose is to downplay the importance of the extra-physical and super-natural?

Quite apart from the 1973 translation being unfaithful to the Latin, it actually butchers the language which these translators were supposed to be experts of! “And Also With” is not proper way to begin a sentence in English. It seems that this international committee of translators didn’t have one native English-speaking person on it, given the weird philology they employed. Since that is a patently silly claim to make on my part, I must conclude that those fluent etymologists and philologists were obscuring the translation for a theological reason.

I am very happy with the new translation, because it translates the Latin into what it actually is in English. How can anyone reject this? The Bible also gives Jesus’ words as “for many”, not “for all”, and so the Mass ought to say “for many”, not “for all”. It seems so simple and logical. I don’t know how anyone could be opposed to it. Well… I’m opposed in the sense that I wish the Mass was entirely in Latin , but that’s another subject.

I just know you would think me a Marxist, but you’re my favorite poster ever. I’m going to send you a friend request.

 

[ProVobis]

Well… I’m opposed in the sense that I wish the Mass was entirely in Latin , but that’s another subject.

Here’s the next best thing.

A OF Latin-English

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/67/TextIndex/9

You can follow along (as I plan to do) in the Latin. I’m still looking for a Latin OF Missal so I can actually bring it to church with me.

 

[Gueifu]

This is so exciting! Can’t wait for the Special Friends edition.
Thanks for the links big bro
I just want to say that you’re doing a great job, keep it up

wow gold