What is the real crisis?

[Lazerlike42]

Anything dogmatic has to be universally accepted in the Catholic Church. Do you mean, then, that the Eastern Rites had to “retain” Latin in their liturgies among other things? I don’t think so. Compare that with Trent which was universal and anathematized all-vernacular liturgies among a lot of things and affected all rites within the Church.

Trent did nothing of the sort. It said that the Council fathers did not believe that it was best to permit Liturgies in the vernacular.

The Second Vatican Council said that Latin was to be retained “in the Latin rites.” The Council was ecumenical, defined new doctrines, and was approved by the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

As an aside, it is not correct that anything dogmatic must be accepted universally. I have spent a great deal of time debating Eastern Orthodox, and this is the same argument that they use to reject universal papal jurisdiction as well as the Councils which were convened to end the schism such as Florence.

 

[peary]

In terms of architecture, the current “bunker” or “glass and steel” models are what’s popular. When an architect is hired to design a church, the diocese is held hostage to the tastes of the designer, who probably doesn’t know or care about what styles are appropriate for a Catholic church. It seems like the only way to combat this tendency is to have more Catholic architects and stained glass artists.

Actually, the bishop has the last word.

 

[bobzills]

Yes, there is a crisis. It is modernism, secularism, relativism and a whole bunch of other isms. In America particularly, many confuse their rights of freedom of choice to extend to the moral law. Just because the laws of this nation say it is OK, it does not mean that it is morally correct. People need discernment to make this distinction. That in itself is one thing that is pitifully lacking in many instances.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Maybe. But there is also the spirit of Vatican II. A lot of people say that the increase in Catholic marriage annulments in the USA is due to modernism, secularism, relativism, etc. However, I am not buying this argument, because when I look at the increase in the number of divorces in the USA, I see an increase, but not all that much. On the other hand, when I look at the increase in the number of marriage annulments in the Roman Catholic Church in the USA, I see an explosion, and a huge increase. So to me, this indicates that something has happened to the RCC, since other Churches and groups of American society have not been similarly affected.

 

[Spirithound]

Yes, there is a crisis. It is modernism, secularism, relativism and a whole bunch of other isms.

Maybe. But there is also the spirit of Vatican II. A lot of people say that the increase in Catholic marriage annulments in the USA is due to modernism, secularism, relativism, etc. However, I am not buying this argument, because when I look at the increase in the number of divorces in the USA, I see an increase, but not all that much. On the other hand, when I look at the increase in the number of marriage annulments in the Roman Catholic Church in the USA, I see an explosion, and a huge increase. So to me, this indicates that something has happened to the RCC, since other Churches and groups of American society have not been similarly affected.

“The spirit (note the small s) of Vatican II” is code-name for all the isms that Deacon Ed named. The increase in Catholic annulments could very well be due to said isms. The difference between secular USA and the Church is that USA “modernized” decades before the Church. The other churches similarly bought into sexual freedom starting in 1930 when the Anglicans legalized ABC for married couples.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I wonder how much of this is related to the fact that Americans hate monarchies and since the Pope is seen as a sort of monarch, they wouldn’t look to him for moral leadership that is so necessary, I think. Just an observation on my part.

I could understand this with W.A.S.P’s I would hope Catholics don’t feel this way.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

to me, this indicates that something has happened to the RCC, since other Churches and groups of American society have not been similarly affected.

How many other churches in the USA go through the annulment process? I don’t know of any off hand.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[ProVobis]

Trent did nothing of the sort. It said that the Council fathers did not believe that it was best to permit Liturgies in the vernacular.

I’m sorry, that is what I meant to say.

The Second Vatican Council said that Latin was to be retained “in the Latin rites.” The Council was ecumenical, defined new doctrines, and was approved by the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

But were the Second Vatican Council directives for Eastern Rites? If the council was only for “Latin rites” how can it be universal? Of course there were parts which I guess could pertain to the universal church.

 

[bobzills]

How many other churches in the USA go through the annulment process? I don’t know of any off hand.

You are simply raising a smokescreen here, playing semantical games, and not facing the hard reality and truth of the situation. Remember, that in order to apply for an annulment, a Catholic couple must first obtain a civil divorce.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

You are simply raising a smokescreen here, playing semantical games, and not facing the hard reality and truth of the situation. Remember, that in order to apply for an annulment, a Catholic couple must first obtain a civil divorce.

No smoke screen. Just an honest question
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[peary]

Maybe. But there is also the spirit of Vatican II. A lot of people say that the increase in Catholic marriage annulments in the USA is due to modernism, secularism, relativism, etc. However, I am not buying this argument, because when I look at the increase in the number of divorces in the USA, I see an increase, but not all that much. On the other hand, when I look at the increase in the number of marriage annulments in the Roman Catholic Church in the USA, I see an explosion, and a huge increase. So to me, this indicates that something has happened to the RCC, since other Churches and groups of American society have not been similarly affected.

**Whoah…the divorce rate among Catholics is in line with the divorce rate of the average American marriage. Yes, the number of annulments in the Church have increased because couples know that they made a mistake and desire a proper married life.

However, more annulments would be on the books but many divorced Catholics choose to marry outside of the Church and do not seek reconciliation with the Catholic community. Also, they have bought into the protestant notion that marriage is not sacramental and have gone to churches and denominations that have embraced divorce almost as a ‘right’. **

 

[Lazerlike42]

I’m sorry, that is what I meant to say.

No problem

But were the Second Vatican Council directives for Eastern Rites? If the council was only for “Latin rites” how can it be universal? Of course there were parts which I guess could pertain to the universal church.

The Second Vatican Council was for the entire Church. It was ecumenical - attended by the bishops of all rites and ratified by the Pope. That’s the reason that the wording of the Council specifically says that Latin is to be retained in the Latin rites - the Council itself applies to all rites. If they didn’t add this qualifier, it would bind the Eastern Churches to start using Latin!

If the Council pertained only to the West, then adding “in the Latin rites” would be superfluous.

 

[peary]

How many other churches in the USA go through the annulment process? I don’t know of any off hand.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

I think only the Catholic Church does because it teaches that Marriage is a sacrament. Most nonCatholic ecclesial communities have rejected that teaching and have accepted divorce as a ‘normal’ human act.

 

[ethelzguy]

I think only the Catholic Church does because it teaches that Marriage is a sacrament. Most nonCatholic ecclesial communities have rejected that teaching and have accepted divorce as a ‘normal’ human act.

Well Said!

 

[bobzills]

**Whoah…the divorce rate among Catholics is in line with the divorce rate of the average American marriage. **

Let’s compare the number of divorces with the number of annulments in the USA.
Divorces in the USA
1930: 195, 961
1979: 1,179,000
1998: 1,135,000
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church in the USA:
1930: 9
1989: 61, 416.
The divorces have increased by a factor of about 6 (5.9)
The annulments in the RCC have increased over the same period by a factor of 6824, or more than one thousand times as much as the divorces in the USA at large. Why has the number of annulments in
the RCC gone up by more than one thousand times more than the number of
divorces in the surrounding culture?

 

[Spirithound]

But were the Second Vatican Council directives for Eastern Rites? If the council was only for “Latin rites” how can it be universal? Of course there were parts which I guess could pertain to the universal church.

I’m sure there were parts that were for the entire Church, but it is natural that at least some things may be Rite-specific.

 

[Spirithound]

You are simply raising a smokescreen here, playing semantical games, and not facing the hard reality and truth of the situation. Remember, that in order to apply for an annulment, a Catholic couple must first obtain a civil divorce.

Let’s compare the number of divorces with the number of annulments in the USA.
Divorces in the USA
1930: 195, 961
1979: 1,179,000
1998: 1,135,000
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church in the USA:
1930: 9
1989: 61, 416.
The divorces have increased by a factor of about 6 (5.9)
The annulments in the RCC have increased over the same period by a factor of 6824, or more than one thousand times as much as the divorces in the USA at large. Why has the number of annulments in the RCC gone up by more than one thousand times more than the number of divorces in the surrounding culture?

I disagree that the Deacon is raising a smoke screen. His point (I think), and mine are the same: we Catholics had more to lose. Your statistics show that there were already a large number of divorces in 1930. If we were to multiply that number by 6824, which is the “Catholic increase”, we’d get 1.3 billion. This would require everyone in the US to get married at least 4 or 5 times EVERY YEAR.

Your comparison of the Catholic increase in rate with the secular increase in rate shows that Catholics simply caught up in secularization with the already secular world. This is consistent with our diagnosis of modernism, secularism, individualism, etc.

 

[peary]

Let’s compare the number of divorces with the number of annulments in the USA.
Divorces in the USA
1930: 195, 961
1979: 1,179,000
1998: 1,135,000
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church in the USA:
1930: 9
1989: 61, 416.
The divorces have increased by a factor of about 6 (5.9)
The annulments in the RCC have increased over the same period by a factor of 6824, or more than one thousand times as much as the divorces in the USA at large. Why has the number of annulments in
the RCC gone up by more than one thousand times more than the number of
divorces in the surrounding culture?

**Statistics right down the line show that those couples who live together prior to Marriage have a greater percentage of experiencing divorce when they do get married. Maybe you are not looking at the whole context of the problem. The more people cohabitate prior to marriage, the higher increase there is in divorce once they are married. **

 

[bobzills]

Statistics right down the line show that those couples who live together prior to Marriage have a greater percentage of experiencing divorce when they do get married. Maybe you are not looking at the whole context of the problem. The more people cohabitate prior to marriage, the higher increase there is in divorce once they are married.

Then why do some Catholic authorities recommend cohabitation before marriage? For example, according to an article in the Catholic journal, US Catholic, by Michael J. Lawler and Gail S. Risch are researchers at the Center for Marriage and Family at the Catholic Creighton University, Nebraska, where they also teach Catholic theology, it is deisrable for couples to cohabit before getting married, as it can be used as a trial before they officially take the step. According to the article: "We invite the Catholic Church to be a leader, rather than an adversary, in acknowledging and nurturing nuptial cohabiting relationships as just and loving relationships and pathways to grace. "

 

[peary]

Then why do some Catholic authorities recommend cohabitation before marriage? For example, according to an article in the Catholic journal, US Catholic, by Michael J. Lawler and Gail S. Risch are researchers at the Center for Marriage and Family at the Catholic Creighton University, Nebraska, where they also teach Catholic theology, it is deisrable for couples to cohabit before getting married, as it can be used as a trial before they officially take the step. According to the article: "We invite the Catholic Church to be a leader, rather than an adversary, in acknowledging and nurturing nuptial cohabiting relationships as just and loving relationships and pathways to grace. "

Why do you think the editor of US Catholic was pulled out of his job? LOL The Church would NEVER recommend cohabitation before marriage! Why would you even consider that Lawler or Risch would carry as much weight as the teaching magisterium of the Church? And the question you need to ask is - why would they recommend something that has been so disasterous to the stability of marriage in the first place? Just because they are ‘theologians’ (are they??) or because they teach at a university does not give them any authority to speak for the Church. Statistics show that these two aren’t even close to understanding this dilemma in marriage.

 

[bobzills]

I disagree that the Deacon is raising a smoke screen. His point (I think), and mine are the same: we Catholics had more to lose. Your statistics show that there were already a large number of divorces in 1930. If we were to multiply that number by 6824, which is the “Catholic increase”, we’d get 1.3 billion. This would require everyone in the US to get married at least 4 or 5 times EVERY YEAR.

Your comparison of the Catholic increase in rate with the secular increase in rate shows that Catholics simply caught up in secularization with the already secular world. This is consistent with our diagnosis of modernism, secularism, individualism, etc.

Why were there such a small number of marriage annulments before Vatican II, but after Vatican II, the rules were watered down and just about anyone can get an annulment now? According to Father Doherty, a tribunal official is quoted as saying: "There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid. "