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fms
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Is this the real genius of Christianity?As I’ve said a number of times here, the genius of Christianity was to invent an illness (“You’re All Doomed!”) and announce itself as the only cure.
If not, what is it and why?
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If not, what is it and why?
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Sam_777
Guest
It’s not as member Kaninchen said “(“You’re All Doomed!”) and announce itself as the only cure.”
Christianity is so generous to the level that it includes those whom adore the one merciful God like the Jews and Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC839 & CCC841).
Show me any other religion which offers such grace and generosity…
Christianity is so generous to the level that it includes those whom adore the one merciful God like the Jews and Muslims in the plan of salvation (CCC839 & CCC841).
Show me any other religion which offers such grace and generosity…
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Sam_777
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Please explain.
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Sam_777
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Excuse me (name removed by moderator) 
, but the main question in this thread was not about “after-life”!
, but the main question in this thread was not about “after-life”!
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Sam_777
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now it’s clear, thanks.
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Hail_Linus
Guest
As I’ve said a number of times here, the genius of Christianity was to invent an illness (“You’re All Doomed!”) and announce itself as the only cure.
As I have already proved in another thread, Kaninchen allegation is completely untrue. It is the Jews who have changed their views of the afterlife. In first century Jewish teachings there was an unreachable higher level of heaven and Christians believe Jesus did open it. BTW, notice in that thread that there is no rebuttal from a Jew, even though I requested one.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=580459
The real genius of Christianity is that it brought Jewish morality to the world. And it actually kicked it up several notches.
*]It is a world wide covenant.
*]All humans are our neighbors. Although we distinguish between Christian and non-Christian we love all. That is why we saw Mother Teresa caring for non-Christians completely out of love for God and with no regard to whether they were Christian or even whether they would convert. We take this for granted today, but this was unheard of prior Christianity. All of these secular Charitable organizations exist only because of the teachings of Christianity.
*]In Christianity, the Golden Rule is insufficient. We must love others as God loves them, whether Christian or not.
*]Furthermore, when we love others it is out of pure love and not for any Karmic reasons. Jesus taught that when we feed or clothe the poor we are feeding and clothing him. In other words it is impossible to love God without loving others.
That is the theology. Of course in practice we have often failed. Another Genius of Christianity is the Church, which also fails, but always safeguards the true teachings of Christianity. The great thing about that is that even if we stray, at some point we recognize that we have strayed and we know what true Christianity is and we return to it.
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Hail_Linus
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Hi Kaninchen:Thanks for yet another plug for the writings of Kaninchen.
The request for a Jewish rebuttal in the other thread is still open:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=580459
Pretty please with sugar on top, please give an opinion.
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Kaninchen
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Oh, I just ignored it because it all seemed to be a mass of conflation and people rambling on about the naughtiness of Jews.Hi Kaninchen:
The request for a Jewish rebuttal in the other thread is still open:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=580459
Pretty please with sugar on top, please give an opinion.
Tell me, Hai_Linus, should we spend our time trying to define Christianity’s views on anything on, say, the basis of the mass of gnostic and non-canonical writings, or the views of the heresies that rose and fell? Or would one be better to spend one’s time looking at the canon, the early Church fathers, the various Councils and the development of Tradition in the Catholic Church?
You cannot, by the way, take snippets out of the Talmud and make them some kind of rule, the Talmud is much more complex ‘Rabbi X says . . .’ having to be taken with ‘But Rabbi Y says’ in the light of what ‘Rabbi Z says’ and so on.
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Hail_Linus
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It does show, however, that Christians did not invent its teachings of the afterlife. It is something inherited from the Jews.
I respect and admire the teachings of Rabbi’s. I can listen to them for hours. I am not trying to convert you to Christianity. I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am interested in your point of view.
If you are interested in the other issues we can discuss them. Just start the thread.
BTW, can you specify the type of Jew you are. I would just like to know where you are coming from.
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Kaninchen
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It all really depends on what you mean by ‘it’ and ‘from the Jews’.
I make it a rule never to say directly because it might carry an implication of criticism of other Jewish posters - so I just tend to say ‘we’re quite observant’.
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Hail_Linus
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First it is very relevant to this discussion to assure you that authentic Christianity did not invent an illness (“You’re All Doomed!”) and announce itself as the only cure. The Christians that do believe that probably think I am doomed also.
My research shows me that just prior to Jesus, many Jews had the following beliefs about the afterlife.
*]There was a belief in a place for the truly wicked to be punished for eternity. I think though that they just wither away at the time of the great resurrection.
*]There was another level that contained two sections, one was a beautiful paradise and the other part was a place of torment but not as bad as the Hell for the truly wicked.
*]There was yet an even higher more beautiful level of Heaven that no one could reach. Christians believe Jesus opened this level of Heaven.
The second level sounds like Catholicism’s Purgatory. If you reach that level you will make it to the higher level that Jesus opened up.
You are not doomed for not being Christian. We believe Christianity is just the ordinary way of reaching that higher heaven. It does not mean non-Christians don’t go to heaven.
When we say there is no salvation outside of the Church we just mean that everybody that gets to purgatory (Christian or not) will get to that higher level of heaven and it is because of Jesus.
I don’t know if you watch Seinfeld in Europe. There is this one episode where Seinfeld is upset that his Catholic Dentist converted to Judaism and is now telling Jewish jokes. He goes to see the Dentist’s Priests, He sits in the confessional booth and says Father first of all let me tell you that I am Jewish. The Priest responds “well that’s no sin.”
I’ll tell you a personal near death story. About four years ago I caught a stomach virus from my son and the virus went to my heart I went into cardiac arrest. My Jewish doctor asked me if I had any visions of the afterlife. I said ,“I’m not sure but I think I saw Jesus and Mary, but they didn’t say anything and I was unable to see their faces.” He jokingly said “Oh no, are you trying to covert me?” I said no not at all, I am not even sure it was Jesus and Mary, all I can tell you for sure is that they were two Jews, so that’s good news for both of us!"
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Kaninchen
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Ah, but I wasn’t talking about the ‘new, improved nostra aetate’ brand of Christianity, I was talking about the brand that all those thunderous old ‘only through the grace/blood of Jesus, I am the way, truth and light’ guys were expounding.First it is very relevant to this discussion to assure you that authentic Christianity did not invent an illness (“You’re All Doomed!”) and announce itself as the only cure. The Christians that do believe that probably think I am doomed also.
You left off ‘no afterlife’ and ‘an afterlife a bit like the traditional Middle Eastern religious view of the afterlife (before the Zoroastrians and Greeks turned up) - rather grey and boring’.
Like most things Jewish, it’s a case of: "on the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . . " Were there various (often Zoroastrian and Greek-influenced) ideas floating around? Certainly, but as to how many people believed in any of them it’s difficult to say (perhaps a lot of them were the ones who went off to be Christians) and the definitive Jewish position ended up with “err, well, um, there’s a lot of ideas around but best we concern ourselves with what we do here and now and not get preoccupied with questions about what happens after.”
I think I knew that I wasn’t doomed for not being a Christian.
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Ahimsa
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In some threads, you’re doomed for being European, though.I think I knew that I wasn’t doomed for not being a Christian.
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Hail_Linus
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You are reading this in a negative light. We always have believed and still believe you are only saved through Jesus whether you accept it or not. Since we believe Jesus is God we are really just saying your are saved only through God. Furthermore, the “I am” in “I am the way, truth and light” to a Catholic refers to God.Ah, but I wasn’t talking about the ‘new, improved nostra aetate’ brand of Christianity, I was talking about the brand that all those thunderous old ‘only through the grace/blood of Jesus, I am the way, truth and light’ guys were expounding.
I was just referring to the time period of Jesus since your statement referred to that time period. I am very well aware the doctrine developed. As for outside influences, did you ever consider that human beings are very related. Are we supposed to ignore Noah and the flood just because the story of Gilgamesh is similar. You should read the book “Jewish Views of the Afterlife” by Rabbi Simcha Paull Raphael. It goes into the whole development throughout history. He is a reconstructionist Jew so I am not sure he believes any of it.
Well I figured out what type of Jew you are. Don’t worry, your secret is safe with me.
The book I suggested shows how the belief that “best we concern ourselves with what we do here and now and not get preoccupied with questions about what happens after” is a very recent development. Frankly, that attitude seems very similar to an Evangelical Christian who knows he is saved so why worry about the afterlife.
I don’t accept unfounded changes to Christianity or Judaism. If I were Jewish I would be Orthodox. We have to agree to disagree. You believe my Jewish religion (Christianity) is invented and I believe your Judaism is invented, meaning your are not Orthodox. I don’t mean that as an insult, it just my opinion. I happen to love Orthodox Judaism. I love to study about Orthodox Judaism.
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Kaninchen
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Ah, but it’s not a matter of your position, it’s a question of how Christianity was put forward in those times.
I’ve more than just considered that there is a relationship between Sumerian and Jewish stories. “In the first days, in the very first days . . .”
Ah, your assumption really should be informed by the idea of somebody who has spent a decade and a half talking about religion on the Internet and doesn’t see a Christian board as a place to argue about whether somebody is keeping Shabbat or koshering lettuces properly.Well I figured out what type of Jew you are. Don’t worry, your secret is safe with me.
While I might often seem to be somewhat flippant in what I say and sometimes joke about Judaism, in four and a half years and over 6000 posts, you’d find that, actually, I never give an inch.
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