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GaryTaylor
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Correct, this is “your” opinion. Would you like to quantify this?
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GaryTaylor
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Morning KathleenHi Gary,
Living in an anti-Catholic ‘Christian’ culture my whole life in the most unchurched and most active in casual sex…Had to put that in…‘all the lovin’’ not leading to a holy life…
And seeing our area become, no surprise, a main center now for human trafficking…
I say it is high time Catholics stop being on the defensive of being Catholic, take the bushel off, and start becoming a beacon of light to contemporary society.
Otherwise, I would like to go back to a poor country and live with more sensible people.
To some extent I believe anyone with any sense is seeing all this come to its fruition. We have become our own worst enemy. The underlying foundation of Church has been replaced with sin. However one may chose to view this, that is the truth.
I can’t remember which Saint stated; that the biggest problem with man today is his inability to remain quietly alone in his room. We run and run and run, and in truth we are running from ourself. Under all this I can’t even begin to think how “happiness” is derived. Some illusion of sick pleasure through drugs, alcohol, sex, violence, well anything goes, its a pick your poison society. Another brink in the wall is what we become. Even monetary gain without a basic foundation of Christianity leads to misery. Somehow we still believe money buys happiness. Truth is contray real happiness can be found in poverty. I remember Edgar Cayce use to state he prefered to be around the poor, he felt Gods presence with the poor. He may have been wrong about some things, however he was right about this and the BVM.
I watched Rosanne Barr for President [comedy]. Ironic Roseanne stated we should throw all the weapons and currency in the ocean and go back to the barter system. Her comedy actually sounds better than most politicians real plan.
Peace
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Arvan
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As I said, it’s metaphorical. The image of Yahweh in OT is that of an all powerful Oriental Emperor- very much like Allah in Quran, or Zeus in Homer. Job is, as we all now, a suffering helpless human being.Correct, this is “your” opinion. Would you like to quantify this?
No greater distance than those between two images. Until they fused in the figure of Christ.
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GaryTaylor
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Right, so the depth of your “opinion” is hypothisis. What is truth to you?. What is your philosophy of life? Sorry. I didn’t back read. I see the post now.As I said, it’s metaphorical. The image of Yahweh in OT is that of an all powerful Oriental Emperor- very much like Allah in Quran, or Zeus in Homer. Job is, as we all now, a suffering helpless human being.
No greater distance than those between two images. Until they fused in the figure of Christ.
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Sufjon
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Hi 1voice: That is one of the most curious things I encountered in my 20 year foray into Christianity. I understand that your bible says that we are children of Adam, and one of the prayers I was given to say on the Catholic Church referred to us as poor banished children of Eve. But if God is the Father of Adam and Adam is the Father of us, then I see the Adam thing as being a cop out. I really am unable to see it any other way. If God is perfect and infallible, then He would know the outcome of what He made before He made it. At minimum, He would know the probability of any given outcome, The second or fallback cop out to the first cop out is to cite free will, but that doesn’t work in my thinking either. Free will would have to be a feature built into us by design, and the designer of course was God. If He is all perfect and all knowing, then He would also know the outcome of free will. He would at least know the probabilities in play. You wouldn’t call an auto maker who makes 60% of their cars bad infallible or perfect. Imagine one where every one that rolled off the assembly line was bad and had to be remade to be acceptable. I would be hard pressed to call that perfect, and blaming your suppliers or subcontractors (Adam) is just a smoke screen for a theology with fundamental problems.… of Adam
That is one of many reasons I was never really able to fully buy in to Christianity no matter how hard I tried. In the faith that I came from and eventually returned to, God is perfect, but doesn’t have any mistakes on His hands, nor are we a mistake in any regard. We are as we were made, and we are are as are for a reason. We have growing to do, but that too is part of the plan. God has a plan for each of us, but in no case is it damnation, at least not forever. It’s all about the learning process and the experience.
Of course I know that God is perfect, all knowing and infallible, and I am glad that this Old Testament view of God is a human concoction. Otherwise, we would be at the mercy of an idiot creator who resembles Lenny Small.
Your friend
Sufjon
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1voice
Guest
Why is it a mistake for God to create human beings with the ability to choose life or death?Hi 1voice: That is one of the most curious things I encountered in my 20 year foray into Christianity. I understand that your bible says that we are children of Adam, and one of the prayers I was given to say on the Catholic Church referred to us as poor banished children of Eve. But if God is the Father of Adam and Adam is the Father of us, then I see the Adam thing as being a cop out. I really am unable to see it any other way. If God is perfect and infallible, then He would know the outcome of what He made before He made it. At minimum, He would know the probability of any given outcome, The second or fallback cop out to the first cop out is to cite free will, but that doesn’t work in my thinking either. Free will would have to be a feature built into us by design, and the designer of course was God. If He is all perfect and all knowing, then He would also know the outcome of free will. He would at least know the probabilities in play. You wouldn’t call an auto maker who makes 60% of their cars bad infallible or perfect. Imagine one where every one that rolled off the assembly line was bad and had to be remade to be acceptable. I would be hard pressed to call that perfect, and blaming your suppliers or subcontractors (Adam) is just a smoke screen for a theology with fundamental problems.
That is one of many reasons I was never really able to fully buy in to Christianity no matter how hard I tried. In the faith that I came from and eventually returned to, God is perfect, but doesn’t have any mistakes on His hands, nor are we a mistake in any regard. We are as we were made, and we are are as are for a reason. We have growing to do, but that too is part of the plan. God has a plan for each of us, but in no case is it damnation, at least not forever. It’s all about the learning process and the experience.
Of course I know that God is perfect, all knowing and infallible, and I am glad that this Old Testament view of God is a human concoction. Otherwise, we would be at the mercy of an idiot creator who resembles Lenny Small.
Your friend
Sufjon
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Sufjon
Guest
Hi 1voice: Thanks for the response. The problem as I see it would be that you would have only two options if you followed a literal Old Testament understanding of our existence. Tell me if you see more options, but I see only two:Why is it a mistake for God to create human beings with the ability to choose life or death?
-God comes into the garden in the cool of the day to find his creations covering themselves. Acting surprised, He inquires as to the reason for this. But being perfect, He knew all along what had happened, and being perfect and all-knowing, He knew all along what was going to happen long before it ever happened, so even asking the question was a ruse, and the whole situation was a sucker punch set up for Adam and Eve to walk into long before they were even made.
-Option two: God had no idea what was going to happen, and was honestly caught by surprise, in which case He is not all-knowing and perfect, and unfortunately for all living things, has the power to create and destroy universes.
In either case, you would have a very scary situation if that is how the Creator is.
As for choosing life or death, most people don’t go around making bad choices with an eye toward long-term outcomes beyond this life, and I think God would be quite aware of this as well. Once again, all of these things are only problems if one has one’s theology all twisted. If you straighten it out, it all fits, but for me that always necessitated looking at Christianity from an SD point if view. We would look at every word of Christ and see something different than what Christians see, and every one of us would give you the same answer without much argument among us. And these are the answers that make sense to me.
Your friend
Sufjon
1
1voice
Guest
Hi 1voice: Thanks for the response. The problem as I see it would be that you would have only two options if you followed a literal Old Testament understanding of our existence. Tell me if you see more options, but I see only two:
-God comes into the garden in the cool of the day to find his creations covering themselves. Acting surprised, He inquires as to the reason for this. But being perfect, He knew all along what had happened, and being perfect and all-knowing, He knew all along what was going to happen long before it ever happened, so even asking the question was a ruse, and the whole situation was a sucker punch set up for Adam and Eve to walk into long before they were even made.
-Option two: God had no idea what was going to happen, and was honestly caught by surprise, in which case He is not all-knowing and perfect, and unfortunately for all living things, has the power to create and destroy universes.
In either case, you would have a very scary situation if that is how the Creator is.
As for choosing life or death, most people don’t go around making bad choices with an eye toward long-term outcomes beyond this life, and I think God would be quite aware of this as well. Once again, all of these things are only problems if one has one’s theology all twisted. If you straighten it out, it all fits, but for me that always necessitated looking at Christianity from an SD point if view. We would look at every word of Christ and see something different than what Christians see, and every one of us would give you the same answer without much argument among us. And these are the answers that make sense to me.
Your friend
Sufjon
The Bible indicates that God was in no way surprised by Adam’s choice.
There is a verse somewhere that states that Jesus planned to give his life in order to redeem mankind from the consequences of Adam’s treason … before the world was created. The remedy was already in place before Adam drew his first breath. God’s questions to Adam after he knowingly disobeyed a direct order were not based on lack of knowledge or surprise. In a court of law it is common practice for an attorney to ask questions of the witness … even if the answer is already known …in order to establish the evidence. God was asking questions in order to establish a clear line of reasoning . He established logical facts that led to a logical conclusion.
Adam had complete free will … to trust God or to trust Satan. God did not interfere with the free choice but he simultaneously provided a way to escape the consequences.Afterward …
God allowed the entire drama of history to play out in order to display clearly … the consequences of making ones self a god … and to give the same choice, in the face of the evidence, to every son of Adam.
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Sufjon
Guest
Good argument for option 1: sucker punch. Trap. No real God would do that, do you think?The Bible indicates that God was in no way surprised by Adam’s choice.
There is a verse somewhere that states that Jesus planned to give his life in order to redeem mankind from the consequences of Adam’s treason … before the world was created. The remedy was already in place before Adam drew his first breath.
Except in this court, your own father is your prosecutor, your attorney, the judge and the jury, and he already set your fate before you were even made. AND…it’s a death penalty case. Sounds to me like the wrong person is on trial. Why is that sort of set up alright? Because God is big and strong and we are hoping for Him to be nice to some of us maybe at some point? A creator like that should be dragged into the Hague for crimes against humanity and civilian populations. Anyway, that’s not how God is thankfully. That’s just the genius of Christianity at work.God’s questions to Adam after he knowingly disobeyed a direct order were not based on lack of knowledge or surprise. In a court of law it is common practice for an attorney to ask questions of the witness … even if the answer is already known …in order to establish the evidence. God was asking questions in order to establish a clear line of reasoning . He established logical facts that led to a logical conclusion.
How does Adam have free will when “The Bible indicates that God was in no way surprised by Adam’s choice. There is a verse somewhere that states that Jesus planned to give his life in order to redeem mankind from the consequences of Adam’s treason … before the world was created. The remedy was already in place before Adam drew his first breath.” -quote from you. I need clarification. Which scenario is the one you mean? Do you see the contradiction?Adam had complete free will … to trust God or to trust Satan. God did not interfere with the free choice but he simultaneously provided a way to escape the consequences.
Nice father. Maybe we should start leaving cigarettes and alcohol laying around within reach of our unattended kids starting around age 8 so they can learn about consequences like liver failure and COPD. No - a good father would remove the danger before his children find out the hard way.God allowed the entire drama of history to play out in order to display clearly … the consequences of making ones self a god … and to give the same choice, in the face of the evidence, to every son of Adam.
What a scary God Christianity conjured up to sell it’s story. A very scary and evil thing I would say. But that’s not the real God. T herein lies the genius of Christianity - to create a disease for which only they have the cure. It’s a mean, petty and monumentally cruel thing to do to people. I watched it at work for 20 years.
Your friend
Sufjon
1
1voice
Guest
Why did your god allow people to make destructive choices and allow history to unfold as it did?Good argument for option 1: sucker punch. Trap. No real God would do that, do you think?
Except in this court, your own father is your prosecutor, your attorney, the judge and the jury, and he already set your fate before you were even made. AND…it’s a death penalty case. Sounds to me like the wrong person is on trial. Why is that sort of set up alright? Because God is big and strong and we are hoping for Him to be nice to some of us maybe at some point? A creator like that should be dragged into the Hague for crimes against humanity and civilian populations. Anyway, that’s not how God is thankfully. That’s just the genius of Christianity at work.
How does Adam have free will when “The Bible indicates that God was in no way surprised by Adam’s choice. There is a verse somewhere that states that Jesus planned to give his life in order to redeem mankind from the consequences of Adam’s treason … before the world was created. The remedy was already in place before Adam drew his first breath.” -quote from you. I need clarification. Which scenario is the one you mean? Do you see the contradiction?
Nice father. Maybe we should start leaving cigarettes and alcohol laying around within reach of our unattended kids starting around age 8 so they can learn about consequences like liver failure and COPD. No - a good father would remove the danger before his children find out the hard way.
What a scary God Christianity conjured up to sell it’s story. A very scary and evil thing I would say. But that’s not the real God. T herein lies the genius of Christianity - to create a disease for which only they have the cure. It’s a mean, petty and monumentally cruel thing to do to people. I watched it at work for 20 years.
Your friend
Sufjon
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