what is the REAL reason why protestants reject mary?

[mikeledes]

If you give a recent convert to Christianity the Bible to read and tell him to read and learn about Jesus, God, etc, would he easily conclude that there is a Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That these three are actually three persons in one God, not, just three manifestations or masks (modalism, Oneness Penetecostalism)? Would they automatically infer that Jesus has two natures, human and divine, and not just one (monophysitism, eutychianism)? Or that He has two wills and not just one (monothelitism)?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Dorothy]

If you give a recent convert to Christianity the Bible to read and tell him to read and learn about Jesus, God, etc, would he easily conclude that there is a Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That these three are actually three persons in one God, not, just three manifestations or masks (modalism, Oneness Penetecostalism)? Would they automatically infer that Jesus has two natures, human and divine, and not just one (monophysitism, eutychianism)? Or that He has two wills and not just one (monothelitism)?

God Bless,
Michael

Very good point.

 

[mikeledes]

You misunderstand sola scriptura.

The issue I have with some of your traditions that your church has seen fit to declare as dogma is that many of them seem rather late developing and if they would have been taught by the apostles it would seem that they would have surfaced earlier than they did.

In his letter, Jude quotes two extra-biblical sources, the *Assumption of Moses *(vs. 9) and the Book of Enoch (vs.14-15). Both of these works, according to most historians, were written circa 2nd century to first century B.C, centuries, even several millenia after Moses and Enoch left this earth. Meanwhile, there is no mention in the Bible (Old Testament) that there was a dispute between Michael the Archangel and the Devil. Nor is there any reference to Enoch having received any prophecy and visions from God or that he wrote any book. This just mysteriously appeared several thousand years later and it is not accepted as canonical by either Jews or Christians. Since this appeared so late in history, should we discount what it says as untrue? If it is truly a book of prophecy written by Enoch and even quoted by Jude as such, why isn’t it included in the Bible? Who made that decision to exclude it and by what authority? If Jude is mistakenly quoting an apocryphal work as a true work written by Enoch, why is Jude included in the canon of Scripture? Who made that decision to include Jude and by what authority? There were early Christians, by the way, who questioned the canoncity of Jude because it quoted apocryphal sources and did not include it in their canon.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Reformed1, you might ask me what is the point of all of my previous posts. They don’t specifically address Catholic teachings on Mary. I wrote what I wrote in order to challenge the assumptions and pre-conceived ideas that inform your view on Catholic teachings on Mary. As long as you hold to a specific idea of authority (i.e. Sola Scriptura), you will have a very difficult time understanding why Catholics believe the things that they do. It’s like when the Dutch allegedly “bought” the island of Manhattan from the native Americans by giving them $24 worth of beads. The natives did not have a European concept of property and thus did not truly understand the implications of the transaction. The Europeans assumed that they did understand. This would become a major source of tension between the natives and the European colonists.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[justasking4]

4given,

The Saints are more alive then we are, and the eternal soul is something you forget, you also assume that saints can ANSWER the prayers-- they can not–they merely pass the petition on to God—

Eph 3:14-15
Romans 8:35 -39

But the best of many I dont cite due to time restraints-

Matt 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30

there are more—

I’ll do my best to come back.

4given,

The Saints are more alive then we are, and the eternal soul is something you forget, you also assume that saints can ANSWER the prayers-- they can not–they merely pass the petition on to God—

How do you know this to be the case? How do you know a person who has died can hear your prayers? There is no such teaching in the NT about this?

Secondly, is it not true that most if not all catholics who die must go to purgatory? If this is the case, how do you know if the dead person you are praying to may be in purgatory and can hear your request and do something about it?

 

[mikeledes]

You believe in the Trinity, reformed1, because it was taught to you by your church. Of course, your church has Scripture verses to support it. But so do the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Oneness Pentecostals in their defense of their respective teachings on God. The Trinity as you know it is the result of development of doctrine. You don’t find the words “nature,” “person,” or “being” in Scripture. Nor do you have a discussion of the human nature of Jesus versus His divine nature. This terminology is non-existent in Scripture. But as heresies popped up that taught alternative views of God (modalism, Arianism, Monophytism, Nestorianism), the Church deepend its understanding of the mystery of the Trinity. We are now enjoying the benefits of the work in the Councils of Nicaea and Ephesus. The church that held these councils did not resemble any Protestant church.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[justasking4]

In his letter, Jude quotes two extra-biblical sources, the *Assumption of Moses *(vs. 9) and the Book of Enoch (vs.14-15). Both of these works, according to most historians, were written circa 2nd century to first century B.C, centuries, even several millenia after Moses and Enoch left this earth. Meanwhile, there is no mention in the Bible (Old Testament) that there was a dispute between Michael the Archangel and the Devil. Nor is there any reference to Enoch having received any prophecy and visions from God or that he wrote any book. This just mysteriously appeared several thousand years later and it is not accepted as canonical by either Jews or Christians. Since this appeared so late in history, should we discount what it says as untrue? If it is truly a book of prophecy written by Enoch and even quoted by Jude as such, why isn’t it included in the Bible? Who made that decision to exclude it and by what authority? If Jude is mistakenly quoting an apocryphal work as a true work written by Enoch, why is Jude included in the canon of Scripture? Who made that decision to include Jude and by what authority? There were early Christians, by the way, who questioned the canoncity of Jude because it quoted apocryphal sources and did not include it in their canon.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

4given,

The Saints are more alive then we are, and the eternal soul is something you forget, you also assume that saints can ANSWER the prayers-- they can not–they merely pass the petition on to God—

How do you know this to be the case? How do you know a person who has died can hear your prayers? There is no such teaching in the NT about this?

Secondly, is it not true that most if not all catholics who die must go to purgatory? If this is the case, how do you know if the dead person you are praying to may be in purgatory and can hear your request and do something about it?

Read Revelation 5:8. How did the 24 elders (who represent the saints in heaven) get the prayers of those on earth? Even an anti-Catholic organization like CARM states that this verse clearly indicates that God allows those in heaven to hear our prayers, though they still do not believe that they can pray for us. But if God allows them to hear our prayers, then why can’t they hear our request for their prayers? God’s Word constantly encourages Christians to pray for one another. Why would he prevent those Christians in heaven to pray for those on earth, especially if they can hear our prayers?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[justasking4]

4given,

The Saints are more alive then we are, and the eternal soul is something you forget, you also assume that saints can ANSWER the prayers-- they can not–they merely pass the petition on to God—

Eph 3:14-15
Romans 8:35 -39

But the best of many I dont cite due to time restraints-

Matt 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30

there are more—

I’ll do my best to come back.

 

[tequilamac]

How can a Protestant reject the assumption of Mary and the idea of the saints while still believing in the Rapture? Like somehow they are more deserving than the Mother of God of being raptured, body and soul into heaven during rush hour on the freeway, but if Catholics suggest the Holy Mother or the Saints have been raptured into heaven and celebrate Assumption- hey watch out.

(Edited for charity)

 

[jmcrae]

Your first paragraph is a great argument against Tradition - God, being God, was then smart enough to make sure all the important information was written down, as oral transmission is inadequate.

But written tradition can be changed or lost - oral tradition cannot. Written tradition passes through the hands of scribes and editors, and can be reinterpreted to mean something else. Look what happened to fairy tales when they began to be written down - we now have the “politically corrected” Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, etc. - when they were transmitted orally, people didn’t think of making them to be “politically correct.”

Your second paragraph is also a great argument for the Reformation. It took 1500 years for the church to figure out TULIP and Sola Scriptura. The idea of development of doctrine works in both directions.

The Reformation was not a continuation of the Church; it was the invention/establishment of a new religion - in fact, it deliberately fought against all Christian tradition - not just oral tradition, but they also did away with large sections of the Scriptures themselves.

 

[justasking4]

Read Revelation 5:8. How did the 24 elders (who represent the saints in heaven) get the prayers of those on earth? Even an anti-Catholic organization like CARM states that this verse clearly indicates that God allows those in heaven to hear our prayers, though they still do not believe that they can pray for us. But if God allows them to hear our prayers, then why can’t they hear our request for their prayers? God’s Word constantly encourages Christians to pray for one another. Why would he prevent those Christians in heaven to pray for those on earth, especially if they can hear our prayers?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[justasking4]

How can a Protestant reject the assumption of Mary and the idea of the saints while still believing in the Rapture? Like somehow they are more deserving than the Mother of God of being raptured, body and soul into heaven during rush hour on the freeway, but if Catholics suggest the Holy Mother or the Saints have been raptured into heaven and celebrate Assumption- hey watch out.

Where is the evidence i.e. eyenwitness accounts from the 1st century that shows that mary was indeed assumed into heaven?

How totally phony and hypocritical can you get?

 

[justasking4]

But written tradition can be changed or lost - oral tradition cannot. Written tradition passes through the hands of scribes and editors, and can be reinterpreted to mean something else. Look what happened to fairy tales when they began to be written down - we now have the “politically corrected” Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, etc. - when they were transmitted orally, people didn’t think of making them to be “politically correct.”

What “oral tradition” do you have from the apostles that were not written down in scripture?

The Reformation was not a continuation of the Church; it was the invention/establishment of a new religion - in fact, it deliberately fought against all Christian tradition - not just oral tradition, but they also did away with large sections of the Scriptures themselves.

 

[justasking4]

Would God be God if a few semi-literate fisherman could understand Him in the first generation? It took the Church 300 years to “get” the Trinity, but it doesn’t contradict anything that the Apostles gave us. (The Apostles themselves didn’t know anything about the Trinity, as I’m sure you must realize.)

It’s the same with the rest of the teachings of the Church - it takes a really long time to understand some things, especially things as complex as the Eucharist, or Mary’s role, but nothing we have contradicts anything that the Apostles gave us

This is not true. No apostle ever taught that we should pray to mary. The only legimate prayer we should ever pray should be to God. This is clear from the NT.

• and what we have now is built upon the foundations that they laid for us - and prohibitions against abuse of the Eucharist, and prayers to Mary for intercession, go back to the first generation of the Church - they’re both 1500 years older than the 5 Solas, or the TULIP doctrine.

What do you mean by the “first generation of the Church”? Was the church of this generation praying to mary at this time? do you have some documentation for me to look at?

Your first paragraph is a great argument against Tradition - God, being God, was then smart enough to make sure all the important information was written down, as oral transmission is inadequate.

Your second paragraph is also a great argument for the Reformation. It took 1500 years for the church to figure out TULIP and Sola Scriptura. The idea of development of doctrine works in both directions.

 

[justasking4]

If you give a recent convert to Christianity the Bible to read and tell him to read and learn about Jesus, God, etc, would he easily conclude that there is a Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That these three are actually three persons in one God, not, just three manifestations or masks (modalism, Oneness Penetecostalism)? Would they automatically infer that Jesus has two natures, human and divine, and not just one (monophysitism, eutychianism)? Or that He has two wills and not just one (monothelitism)?

God Bless,
Michael

Michael,
i agree that a person just by picking up a bible would necessarily draw these conclusions immediately. However, Christ gave His church “pastor-teachers” to teach His people what the scripture says and means. However, a new believer can learn alot on his own by reading it consistently. We are also commanded by scripture to “have the words of Christ richly dwell within us”. see Col 3:15

 

[Odell]

4given,
How do you know this to be the case? How do you know a person who has died can hear your prayers? There is no such teaching in the NT about this?

I can tell you have not read all threw the thred Im going to give you scripture that I have posted 2 times already and have gotten no response so Im going to post it a 3rd. Maybe YOU can tell me how these verse do not mean they can hear our verses. It hasnt been done yet. And if it is what you believe tell me how you can deny what Catholics teach on this in regards to these scripture passages

(Eph 2:19) “So then you are no longer STRANGERS and sojourners, but you are **FELLOW-CITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS, **and the house hold of God.” And what do we do with the citizen here on earth we ask for there prayer. Same for the body of Christ in heaven.

(Rev. 8:3-4) “the smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the **holy ones **went up before God from the hand of the angel.” Obviously they pray for us in heaven and present our prayers to the Lord.

Who are these holy ones? And why are the angels handing them to God? If we are only to pray strait to God and if that is all people are doing than the angels would not have any prayers to offer.

(Tobit 12:12) “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was **I who presented **and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord.” we have an angel presenting a prayer to God!!! Just as we present prayer for one another here on earth. It has always been Christian tradition that they still do this in heaven. And our loved ones who have gone before us that are equal to the angels pray for us as well.

We are also equal to the angels when in heaven (Lk 20:34-36) and there are countless verses that say angels see us… And if angels can see us and we are equal then those in heaven must be able to see us. And not only do angels see us they help us in our journey to heaven well Catholics believe the saints in heaven who are equal to the angles help us also threw there prayer. “The prayer of a rightous person availath much.”

please help me I just cant get by these verses there so Catholic

 

[justasking4]

Michael-- I don’t know if you got my first reply. I’ve been having computer problems and i have not seen my respnonses to you on this.

Read Revelation 5:8. How did the 24 elders (who represent the saints in heaven) get the prayers of those on earth?

** If you read the passage you will find that it says nothing about the saints praying directly to these elders. Rather it mentions these were “bowls of incense which were the prayers of the saints”. **

Even an anti-Catholic organization like CARM states that this verse clearly indicates that God allows those in heaven to hear our prayers, though they still do not believe that they can pray for us.

**That may be but this is not a good passage to use for praying to the saints which is a major doctrine of the catholic church. **

But if God allows them to hear our prayers, then why can’t they hear our request for their prayers?
** You are assuming a number of things here. You must assume that a dead person has this capacity.
Secondly, can a dead person who may be in purgatory hear your prayers?

Just because something may sound reasonable does not mean its true. Such is the case here.

**

God’s Word constantly encourages Christians to pray for one another. Why would he prevent those Christians in heaven to pray for those on earth, especially if they can hear our prayers?

** A couple of reasons are against this position. One is that no apostle ever taught such a doctrine-practice. All prayers are directed directly to God alone. Two, Luke 16:19-31 sheds some light on this. Verse 26 speaks of a “chasm” that blocks the way of any communication with the dead.

The third reason is that this doctrine is totally unnecessary since Christ is sufficent for all our needs. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

What do you mean by the “first generation of the Church”? Was the church of this generation praying to mary at this time? do you have some documentation for me to look at?

Josh McDowell, in his book Evidence Demanding a Verdict, shows archaeological evidence that the first verse of the Hail Mary prayer was inscribed on the pillars of the Catacombs where the first generation of Christians in Rome met for Mass during the persecutions of that era - so, yes, it seems as though they were praying to Mary, even that early.

Obviously they would not have prayed to her before she died, but the Book of Acts records that she was present at nearly all of the really important events of the first generation, as well - she was certainly well known to the Apostles, and it seems as though they included her in just about everything.

 

[Odell]

justasking4

would you respond to 371