What is the 'Reformed' tradtion, or TULIP

[onemangang]

The “New Calvinism”, which is basically just a renewed interest in the teachings of Calvin emphasizing God’s sovereignty and God’s glory, is making its way through evangelicalism. There is a demographic called “young, restless, and reformed” that spans evangelicalism, not just the historic Christian Reformed denomination.

The New Calvinism doesn’t come out and say “Hey, were Calvinist” instead their pastor instructs them to tell people if asked about theology “We are compatibilist”

There is a Christian community out her in Los Angeles (Reality L.A.) that fits the New Calvinism model of “evangelicalism”? whatever that may be! The pastor of Reality L.A. is named Tim Chaddick who professes to be a compatibalist. It’s mostly young hollywood Christian hipsters in there early 20’s to early 40’s, many that were “saved out of Catholicism” unfortunately!

Much of what the New Calvinist (Compatibilist) Evangelicals do is brilliant, when it comes to using New Media. The “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus || Spoken Word” Video is a product of the "“young, restless, and reformed” type crowd. Now I do not know if that man was Calvinist, but certainly young, restless, and Christian!

Kind of strange, you may have New Calvinist (Compatibliist) witnessing to Free Will Atheist I feel like I just stepped into the Twilight Zone :hypno:

 

[Pwrlftr]

Thanks for the clarification, clearly I am no expert

By lack of free will, I’m thinking the unregenerated person has no option to chose Christ and work to become a sanctified person (is that a correct reflection?)

I believe it would be more accurate to say that witholut God’s calling the unregenerate person is unable to become sanctified. In other words, God is the mover, He initiates the stirring in our soul.

This a belief that is shared by both the Reformed and Catholics.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I grew up in a reformed Presbyterian church. Examples of famous reformed pastors would be John Piper, Marc Driscoll (don’t recommend), R.C. Sproul. They are Calvinists who emphasize total depravity of man and things like limited atonement, and predestination. There are multiple denominations that fit into the reformed category, mainly the Presbyterian denomination, as well as Reformed Baptists.

A common complaint most people have about the reformed tradition/Calvinism has to do with predestination, namely that God would create a person with the intent of damning him, from the very time that person is created he predestines him to hell. This goes against the idea of a loving God. Also is the general issue about how God allows evil to happen, because Calvinists believe that all evil, including the fall of Adam, as well as the damnation of the sinner, is all part of God’s divine plan to serve His greater glory. Catholics and other Christians tend to believe that evil is the result of man’s free will and that God allows evil to happen because he doesn’t want to interfere with man’s freedom to act; Calvinists object that this view suggests that God is not sovereign. So it boils down to a question of either the sovereignty or the goodness of God.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I believe it would be more accurate to say that witholut God’s calling the unregenerate person is unable to become sanctified. In other words, God is the mover, He initiates the stirring in our soul.

This a belief that is shared by both the Reformed and Catholics.

This is true but Catholics believe that it is ultimately the man’s decision (free will) of whether to follow him or not, whereas Reformed believe in irresistible grace.

 

[Koineman]

I have a new Christian friend who described his church as being from the Reformed tradition, also known as TULIP. Good guy.Just wondered what this kind of church was about, from a Catholic point of view. Thanks.

Reformed theology encompasses much more than the TULIP, aka 5 points of Calvinism. The TULIP is only soteriological in its scope, whereas Reformed theology includes other areas, such as ecclesiology, sacraments, eschatology, etc.

 

[Koineman]

Just to make it clearer:

For the Reformed, If one is elect, they will respond to God’s inward and outward calling and come to faith. That is the “I” or Irresistible Grace part of TULIP.

The non-Elect (those passed over by the purpose of God) are left in their sins. Their free will is to not choose God. The Elect are freed at some point by the monergistic action of God from the inability to choose God, as a fallen creature. They will inevitable be saved.

Basically, they believe in free will, but make the distinction that the non-Elect will stay enemies of God and never choose him. The RCC believes everyone can choose God, which would be called synergism.

I think that’s an excellent summary.

For the Reformed, Limited Atonement means those meant to be saved will be saved.

That’s unconditional election with predestination thrown in. Limited atonement means that Christ died only for the elect and nobody else.

 

[JonNC]

Not all reformers use TULIP.

It is my understanding that only Calvinists use TULIP.

I don’t think Lutherans, Armenians, and most Baptists subscribe to TULIP, although I have seen plenty of 3-4 point Calvinists in Baptists.

Lutherans reject the U L I P of the TULIP.

Jon

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Lutherans reject the U L I P of the TULIP.

Jon

Yes and Methodists reject a lot of it too. They believe you can fall from grace, same as do Catholics, and basically their whole goal is sanctification. They believe they will be Saints when they die.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

Yes and Methodists reject a lot of it too. They believe you can fall from grace, same as do Catholics, and basically their whole goal is sanctification. They believe they will be Saints when they die.

Baptists are split between TULIP and Arminian views… there is no official Baptist teaching on this, because all Baptist churches are considered autonomous congregations, even though they may be part of a convention. Some are Reformed Baptists,others are not, even within the same convention.

This is currently a point of controversy between churches of especially the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

[andrewstx]

Whom are we discussing here? The classical Calvinists, Reformed Church in America, Christian Reformed church, Presbyterian church US. Or the newer churches like Reformed Baptists, who are very different from the mainline reformed and Presbyterian churches?

These newer ecclesial groups are very different from the classical Reformed and Pres churches. They are fundamental, and there is a huge difference between Mark Driscoll and say Norman Vuncent Peale and Robert Schuler who also are/were Reformed.

I sang in the choir of a Presbyterian church for a while and things like elect, predestination were never mentioned from the pulpit.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

P.S. Baptists of the Reformed persuasion generally adhere to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith or some other modernized version of it.

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

 

[Frankenfurter]

Wow, great answers.

I have to admit. I am more confused as ever though.

Some of you guys seem to get into your own discussion.

Some of you tried to answer my question though and I do appreciate it.

It seems that the reformed tradition is something from Switzerland? But TULIP is a Calvinist set of doctrines. But since his church is about full immersion for adults, then he is a baptist.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

Wow, great answers.

I have to admit. I am more confused as ever though.

Some of you guys seem to get into your own discussion.

Some of you tried to answer my question though and I do appreciate it.

It seems that the reformed tradition is something from Switzerland? But TULIP is a Calvinist set of doctrines. But since his church is about full immersion for adults, then he is a baptist.

Baptists are “age of consent” baptizers, but some in the Reformed tradition (Calvin included) believed in pedo-baptism as part of their covenantal theology. Some Reformers believe similarly to Baptists as far as baptism goes.

It is hard to put all strains of Reformers into neat categories, since there were many similarities and there have been differences (especially those that have grown over time). To call all Calvinists “Baptists” is not correct.

You are correct though, that TULIP is held by 5-point Calvinists. It was a doctrinal statement that was created to counter some within the Reformed camp that were questioning the veracity of Calvinist doctrine.

 

[andrewstx]

Baptists are “age of consent” baptizers, but some in the Reformed tradition (Calvin included) believed in pedo-baptism as part of their covenantal theology. Some Reformers believe similarly to Baptists as far as baptism goes.

It is hard to put all strains of Reformers into neat categories, since there were many similarities and there have been differences (especially those that have grown over time). To call all Calvinists “Baptists” is not correct.

You are correct though, that TULIP is held by 5-point Calvinists. It was a doctrinal statement that was created to counter some within the Reformed camp that were questioning the veracity of Calvinist doctrine.

The baptists I think were not historically part of Calvinism, they always mixed calvinism with arminianism.

Some of the Baptists have become 5point, TULIP Calvinists, but they are the minority amoungst Baptists.

Historically Calvinists have been in the Reformed church in America, the Christian Reformed church, and the various Presbyterian churches.

But these are all main-line Protestant churches which are now dwindling and losing influence. The churches that get attention now are fundamentalist.

It is my opinion that with the shift politically to the right has also had influence on religion which has also shifted far right.

You see it right here in CAF, where liberal has become an epithet, a naughty word and a curse thrown at others.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

The baptists I think were not historically part of Calvinism, they always mixed calvinism with arminianism.

Some of the Baptists have become 5point, TULIP Calvinists, but they are the minority amoungst Baptists.

Historically Calvinists have been in the Reformed church in America, the Christian Reformed church, and the various Presbyterian churches.

But these are all main-line Protestant churches which are now dwindling and losing influence. The churches that get attention now are fundamentalist.

It is my opinion that with the shift politically to the right has also had influence on religion which has also shifted far right.

You see it right here in CAF, where liberal has become an epithet, a naughty word and a curse thrown at others.

Baptists began with the English Separatist movement and you are correct that not all Baptists are Calvinistic… the SBC is a good example of that… and as I said in an earlier post here, the split between Arminian & Calvinist among them has become a point of contention, lately.

 

[andrewstx]

Baptists began with the English Separatist movement and you are correct that not all Baptists are Calvinistic… the SBC is a good example of that… and as I said in an earlier post here, the split between Arminian & Calvinist among them has become a point of contention, lately.

Yes I am aware of all that. How could I not be in an area where to SBC is the unofficial but the state church in effect. Where southern baptists litterally rule not as a saying but a
litteral fact.

To tell the truth I grow weary of baptists and even here on a Catholic site they try to dominate.

 

[Justice_Mercy]

Yes I am aware of all that. How could I not be in an area where to SBC is the unofficial but the state church in effect. Where southern baptists litterally rule not as a saying but a
litteral fact.

To tell the truth I grow weary of baptists and even here on a Catholic site they try to dominate.

I hear you!
I had a very negative experience at a Baptist church as a child. Also, the so-called Independent Baptist churches seem to either be Hyper-Calvinists or conspiracy theorists. I don’t mean to paint them all with a broad brush and I know that all Baptists aren’t like that, but besides Oneness Pentecostals, they have been the ones that have been the most close-minded and belligerent people that call themselves Christians that I have ever encountered .

 

[andrewstx]

I hear you!
I had a very negative experience at a Baptist church as a child. Also, the so-called Independent Baptist churches seem to either be Hyper-Calvinists or conspiracy theorists. I don’t mean to paint them all with a broad brush and I know that all Baptists aren’t like that, but besides Oneness Pentecostals, they have been the ones that have been the most close-minded and belligerent people that call themselves Christians that I have ever encountered .

Perhaps part of the reason is that Baptists esp independent Baptists have no educational requirements?

I know that there are some seminaries, but the don’t have to go, and a lot don’t outside of large cities in big churches. So often if Baptists feel the call, and they get deacons boards to hire them, they just start preaching.

Around here (west texas) the baptists dominate everything and I have had baptist doctrine shoved at me all my life.

I don’t know the situation now, but when I was in High School they defied the supreme court and baptist prayers were said over the PA system daily. (In jazus name aymin).

Baccalauite (sp) services had baptist preachers always, and commencement always had a baptist preacher give the prayer. Same went for football games.

In the “comunity” Thanksgiving service it was completly done by baptists.

Did you know the Baptists were origianlly founded on the Principle of religous freedom, and church-state seperation?

How far they have come!

 

[Justice_Mercy]

Perhaps part of the reason is that Baptists esp independent Baptists have no educational requirements?

I know that there are some seminaries, but the don’t have to go, and a lot don’t outside of large cities in big churches. So often if Baptists feel the call, and they get deacons boards to hire them, they just start preaching.

Around here (west texas) the baptists dominate everything and I have had baptist doctrine shoved at me all my life.

I don’t know the situation now, but when I was in High School they defied the supreme court and baptist prayers were said over the PA system daily. (In jazus name aymin).

Baccalauite (sp) services had baptist preachers always, and commencement always had a baptist preacher give the prayer. Same went for football games.

In the “comunity” Thanksgiving service it was completly done by baptists.

Did you know the Baptists were origianlly founded on the Principle of religous freedom, and church-state seperation?

How far they have come!

I have noticed that about Independents, too… they are probably some of the least Biblically educated, yet they are teaching wild doctrines to people.

As far as the mixing with the State is concerned, I think it has bitten into the US culture and has led to more problems, not less

I cannot even fathom having that pushed at me in school and in civic life… I feel your pain.

Great points!

 

[Frankenfurter]

OK, looking at his churches statement more clearly now, I see the following (my summary):

Evangelical, reformed, charismatic

Reformed doctrine of salvation (A.K.A. TULIP)

Scripture is sole source, tradition is bad

Full immersion baptism only for adults, not for infants

They do not beleive in cessationism?

Not sure about cessationism from a Catholic perspective? I don’t even know where we Catholics stand here? Seems like we don’t believe in that either. I’ve never heard it even discussed.