What is the right way to interpret Litany of Humility?

[LiamQ]

What injustice?

My understanding of your previous posts is that you have some gripes about things in your life that you consider to be injustices. No?

EDIT: Bob, excuse me, I think I’m actually confusing you with another poster. I’m not entirely sure at this point, but for now, disregard this part of my response.

God does not want us to enjoy creation. We are supposed to suffer. The cross is what life is all about.

As I said previously: enjoying the good things in life is to give glory to God Who has created them. When sufferings come about, yes, we are to take up our crosses. That means submitting ourselves to God’s will and permitting Him to work graces in us.

But you have a demonic understanding of this: you seemingly believe in absolutely zero moderation. It’s either absolutely 100 percent being hedonistic or 100 percent abstaining. That’s not what Catholicism is.

Because I don’t want to suffer, I am a bad person in God’s eyes. I’m not a hedonist, but I hate suffering.

No, it means you’re soft, it’s a vice. It means you’re effeminate, like most of us men are in today’s culture. You don’t want to separate yourself from pleasure in order to pursue something arduous or some sort of excellence.

You say “in God’s eyes” as if He’s somehow wrong. THIS is an example of being an injustice collector.

Why did Christ ask the rich young ruler to give up all his wealth before he’d let him follow him? Because wealth is evil? No. We’re not supposed to be attached to creation.

It’s not so much that we’re not supposed to be attached to creation, although that’s also a fair way of putting it. But it’s that we’re supposed to be attached to God.

One can be attached to God AND enjoy creation. How? By using creation as it was meant to be used: to point to God and to give Him glory. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

But again, one has to exercise temperance and moderation. It’s the demonic that consistently throws out all moderation.

 

[BobCatholic]

As I said previously: enjoying the good things in life is to give glory to God Who has created them.

How do I enjoy good things in life so as to give glory to God? If he wants glory, OK, I’ll be glad to give it to him (it is meet and just…)

When sufferings come about, yes, we are to take up our crosses. That means submitting ourselves to God’s will and permitting Him to work graces in us.

But I am not a masochist. I hate suffering.

But you have a demonic understanding of this: you seemingly believe in absolutely zero moderation. It’s either absolutely 100 percent being hedonistic or 100 percent abstaining. That’s not what Catholicism is.

I reject hedonism. But I also don’t see why we must carry the cross. I thought Christ’s sacrifice was enough and he did the “heavy lifting”

When a fireman rescues someone from a burning building, he’s not going to go and demand that person do something in return. But Christ rescues us from hell and he demands us to do stuff? Salvation is not a free gift, it comes with a catch.

No, it means you’re soft, it’s a vice. It means you’re effeminate, like most of us men are in today’s culture.

God’s grace is soft. It is very fragile and easily lost.

If one wants to go to heaven, it takes horrific suffering and tons of pain. God makes it horrificly difficult to get to him.

To go to hell? Just exist.

You don’t want to separate yourself from pleasure in order to pursue something arduous or some sort of excellence.

That’s hedonism. I reject hedonism.

You say “in God’s eyes” as if He’s somehow wrong. THIS is an example of being an injustice collector.

I’m not going down the road of saying God’s wrong - but I can’t understand this. In fact, nobody understands why God makes it so hard to get to him.

That’s why I gave up on having a personal relationship with God, I can only have a corporate one.

But it’s that we’re supposed to be attached to God.

I tried. Every attempt to do this failed. I just can’t do it. I hate the devil. I want nothing to do with him, so I go to God. He pushes me away, so I’m clearly a bad person, with no value to God.

 

[Della]

Bob, you have a very Jansenist understanding of life. Please allow me to correct some of your misconceptions:

No, we are not to be attached to this life over and above God. However, we can enjoy creation in all it’s beauty because it was made for us to enjoy and to use–properly use that is.

And no, we don’t need to go through horrendous sufferings in order to be saved. Christ redeemed us–that satisfied God’s justice for our sins. But being saved is another matter. We are working towards our salvation as redeemed people. 99% of the burden was on Christ, but we need to do our small part too, by availing ourselves of the graces that allow us to carry whatever crosses we may have to bear as a consequence of living as wounded people in a fallen world.

God’s grace is what makes our burdens easy and light. No true saint is a sourpuss, expecting God to do everything for him and complaining because he has his part to do. That’s not loving God–that’s thinking of him as a taskmaster not our Beloved. You need to have a good, long talk with your priest about all this. Make an appointment today, Bod, for the sake of your faith and sanity.

 

[BobCatholic]

And no, we don’t need to go through horrendous sufferings in order to be saved.

OK, so why am I required to suffer? As in: I can’t avoid it? Prayers for temporal mercy are ignored.

but we need to do our small part too, by availing ourselves of the graces that allow us to carry whatever crosses we may have to bear as a consequence of living as wounded people in a fallen world.

God’s grace is very fragile. It is easily lost.

It is so easy to go to hell, but hard to go to heaven.

I’ll avail myself of the sacraments and other grace-obtaining methods (prayers, indulgences, etc). That’s all I can expect, can’t expect a personal relationship with God.

God’s grace is what makes our burdens easy and light.

If this is true, then I’m nowhere within a million miles of even a drop of grace.

No true saint is a sourpuss, expecting God to do everything for him and complaining because he has his part to do.

I’m a million miles away from being a saint.

expecting God to do everything for him and complaining because he has his part to do.

So if I’m redeemed, and then told I have to do stuff (like endure horrific suffering with a smile on my face) then salvation is not truly a gift from God - it is coming with strings attached, a gotcha, fine print, the fast talking lawyer at the end of the commercial with the 10 second disclaimer. In other words, it is not free. Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough. I have to do my part by adding my sufferings to the pot.

It is like a fireman who rescues someone from a burning building then demands all kinds of stuff from the rescued.

That’s not loving God–that’s thinking of him as a taskmaster not our Beloved.

I want so badly to love God. But in order to do that, I need to know him. Every attempt I made to get closer to him failed. So right now I’ve given up on trying to have a personal relationship with God and will have to settle for a corporate one. I’m in the Church (corporate) and that’s as close to God I can get.

I don’t want to think bad things about God (like he’s a taskmaster or anything bad) - and I struggle with this.

But who am I, a worthless speck of dust, to even THINK that I could have a personal relationship with an all-Holy God? I must have been ego-manically out of my mind to think that.

 

[ccmcmg]

Bob,
Let me say first, that I’ll add you to my prayers, and I am sad for you that you are in such despair. You’ve written much, but these were the first things that caught my eye. I will try to come back to give more answers for you if you continue to be unable to see God’s Love for you, and His Desire for a relationship with you.

I wish God would choose me. But there’s always a catch. God never gives unconditionally, every gift has a price to pay.

God DOES love us unconditionally. I know this because there is absolutely nothing we can do to ‘earn’ His love. Nothing. He has given us more, loved us more, than we could ever possibly give to Him, to earn His Love, to serve Him enough. The price doesn’t come from Him, but of the challenges we face on earth by being fallen human beings, sinful creatures, but the rewards are beyond any measure of greatness and joy you can imagine.

This is why I’ve made the decision to give up, on trying to have a personal relationship with God.

I’ll never have a personal relationship with God, so I’m going to settle for just having a corporate relationship.

I’m in the body of Christ, but not the heart. I’ll just pray for others (since praying for me doesn’t work). I’ll take the sacraments. And that’s all I’ll ever have. I’ll never be able to know God on a personal basis.

I’ll never be able to become a saint, seems that CINO is the best I can aspire for.

“From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

So since I’m not given much (i.e. personal relationship) God won’t demand anything from me. All I can do is just…exist.

Please don’t give up. Please. You do have a personal relationship, by being His child; He created you exactly as He wants you to be. Find that hope in you. Find that love. That’s what He wants. That can be the start of a good relationship with God: by seeing in you what He sees in you.

Praying does work. We have to learn how to listen. God’s not a vending machine, dispensing our desires depending on how many prayers we put in. Prayer increases our Faith in Him; it doesn’t increase His Faith in us. He has great faith in us! He loves us more deeply than we could ever imagine.

Saints aren’t perfect people. As the saying goes, the Church is a hospital for sinners, not saints. Name one perfect person. One. You can’t do it. Not St. John Paul II, not St. Faustina, not St. Matthew, not soon to be St. Teresa of Calcutta. Even St Teresa of Calcutta had long times of dryness where she didn’t ‘feel’ close to God.

Don’t give up. You’re in the right place, here, among people who DO care about you, and many who have been through long periods of spiritual dryness. Deep down, there is hope in you, desire to be close to God, and belief that you can. It’s hard finding that kernel of hope sometimes. It’s there, I promise you. I know this from the deepest part of my heart and soul. Trust in Him. Believe in Him. Keep going.

Sometimes, I forget to look for God. Sometimes, I can’t help but see Him everywhere I look. Which one is more true? Does He cease to exist when I’m not looking? Or am I just not looking correctly? I have to adjust my vision. Maybe you can adjust your prayer. As I came back to God, to the Church, to the Faith, I didn’t know how to pray. I didn’t know how to pray to Him, to see Him. My joys came in being forgiven, in going to Mass, in receiving the Sacraments, including reconciliation. In fact, Confession is where I often felt/feel closest to Him, however I’ve sinned. Yet, sometimes, I ‘feel’ nothing afterwards/during. I have to trust in Him.

I am easily distracted (still) during prayer. Especially at the beginning, I downloaded Laudate and the Rosary Player, and prayed the Rosary along with the audio portion of the app. I began attending Mass at a couple different parishes; one had weekday Mass at a time convenient for me. I went to regular confession, and always Sunday Mass. I came to this website, looking for support (as have you).

I would pray, and not felt heard. One day, I had concerns, and He knew them. I couldn’t concentrate to pray, except to say, repeatedly, “Jesus, I love you.” My heart was open and I heard/felt an answer; those same words were spoken to me by my priest in Confession that afternoon, despite not mentioning that concern, nor was it related to my sins. But I had to open my ears and hear Him, in a new way for me.

Appreciating God’s physical gifts of things like nature helps me as well. I marvel at His creations. He loves them, and those birds can’t give anything back to Him but their songs (etc etc).

 

[ccmcmg]

OK, so why am I required to suffer? As in: I can’t avoid it? Prayers for temporal mercy are ignored.

**
We all suffer. It’s a human condition, and despite the pain it feels, it’s only temporary, and with God’s Grace, rewarded in Heaven.**

God’s grace is very fragile. It is easily lost.

Actually, we don’t ‘lose’ God’s Grace as much as we ‘choose’ to give it away, to relinquish it. It’s not an accident when we fall out of Grace. Our sins are a choice, and His Grace is always waiting for us to return.

It is so easy to go to hell, but hard to go to heaven.

It’s a choice. We choose where we go. God has told us, through the Bible and the Church, what keeps us from Heaven, which again, are our choices.

I’ll avail myself of the sacraments and other grace-obtaining methods (prayers, indulgences, etc). That’s all I can expect, can’t expect a personal relationship with God.

That’s a start! You CAN expect a personal relationship with God. It IS hard to form from our point of view. But He is waiting for us. He promises. You are doing a great job with going to Mass, partaking of the Sacraments (confession, too?), prayers and indulgences.

One thing that I’m learning is that sometimes, it’s best to come to God as a servant seeking his Master; other times, I pray with Him, to Him, as my best friend holding my hand; still other times, I pray to Him as a Father, or with the Holy Spirit. I have some emotional scars/childhood trauma that I’m working on, and recently this came to me at Mass: a small child was sitting behind me, about the same age as I was when things happened (around 6 or 7). Her voice was so clear and so joyful. I’m going to work on coming to Him as a child, with a clear love that isn’t tainted yet by the things that scarred me for decades.

If this is true, then I’m nowhere within a million miles of even a drop of grace.
I’m a million miles away from being a saint.

Me too! We cannot earn that Grace; we cannot buy His Grace with anything we do. We do have to trust in Him, in that Grace, in His Love. That’s what we have to do. By doing those things, we will do our best to avoid sin, to do good works, because His Love inspires us to do so. We’ll fail, but we’ll try again.

So if I’m redeemed, and then told I have to do stuff (like endure horrific suffering with a smile on my face) then salvation is not truly a gift from God - it is coming with strings attached, a gotcha, fine print, the fast talking lawyer at the end of the commercial with the 10 second disclaimer. In other words, it is not free. Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough. I have to do my part by adding my sufferings to the pot.

It is like a fireman who rescues someone from a burning building then demands all kinds of stuff from the rescued.

Do you think you won’t suffer if you don’t believe in Him? Wrong. You’ll still suffer. You just won’t have any joy to follow it. God doesn’t love us conditionally. He loves us unconditionally.

But who am I, a worthless speck of dust, to even THINK that I could have a personal relationship with an all-Holy God? I must have been ego-manically out of my mind to think that.

God wouldn’t create a worthless speck of dust. Every one of us, yes, even the worst of sinners, was created to be His child, His beloved, and to be with Him in Heaven forever. The choices we make decide where we’ll end up.

Again, we don’t have to ‘earn’ or be a certain amount of good to desire a relationship with Him. He wants that relationship with you! He has told us this, over and over and over. It’s really rather a matter of pride to think that you are a better judge of yourself than He is. Our judgment of ourselves is clouded by our human nature, by our sins, and yes, by the devil. He doesn’t want us to realize the Goodness of the Lord; he wants us to doubt God’s Love for us. The doubt, the worthlessness, the despair…are those good things? Or are they bad things? Only good things come from the Lord. Where do the bad things come from? From someone who desires for NO ONE to be with God, because he cannot be. God’s Love for us is good; God’s good things for us come from Love and His Desire for us to be with Him.

God bless you, my friend, God bless you.

I also highly recommend finding a Catholic therapist if possible. Talking these things through with someone with a 3rd party perspective can enlighten us and make us see our wrong thinking. I know the feelings you’re feeling. If not a therapist, a priest that you hit it off with.

 

[Elena321]

BobCatholic :hug3:
As far as I’m aware,Suffering doesn’t usually have to mean being in deep mental torment.Thats more like a “fruitless” suffering.
Also you’re not worthless.When the bible has passages like “we are unworthy servants” it doesn’t mean worthless in the sense of being worthless-this is beating yourself up!

 

[BobCatholic]

God DOES love us unconditionally.

God loves us unconditionally, OK. But he doesn’t give gifts unconditionally. Not one gift is given without a condition. They all have a catch. Fine print. The fast talking lawyer talking 100mph disclaimers.

Please don’t give up. Please. You do have a personal relationship, by being His child; He created you exactly as He wants you to be.

I’ve just accepted God’s will here. I’m only supposed to have a corporate relationship with God, not a personal one. I’ll never have a two-way conversation with him. until the after life.

Praying does work.

Yes. For others. That’s why I pray for others.

If I pray for me, it won’t work. God doesn’t want to help me, temporally.

God’s not a vending machine .

I know. I don’t even have a coin if he were one.

Saints aren’t perfect people.

While on this planet, true. But in the afterlife, they’re perfect. God perfected them.

I want to love God more. I want to know him. But that’s not going to happen. I’ll only be able to look at him from a horrendous distance while I’m on this planet.

 

[BobCatholic]

BobCatholic :hug3:
As far as I’m aware,Suffering doesn’t usually have to mean being in deep mental torment.Thats more like a “fruitless” suffering.
Also you’re not worthless.When the bible has passages like “we are unworthy servants” it doesn’t mean worthless in the sense of being worthless-this is beating yourself up!

Obviously you never read the lives of the saints.

St. Faustina refereed to herself as a “worthless speck of dust”

I’m trying to walk in their footsteps. I have to understand that I am completely without any value to God. All good that “I” happen to do is not me doing it, but God doing it. God crowns his accomplishments in me, not crowning me. I can’t brag before God. Nothing good I do is me doing it.

I have to work my way up to “unworthy servant” status. I got a long way to go before I ever get promoted to that level.

 

[BobCatholic]

**
We all suffer. It’s a human condition, and despite the pain it feels, it’s only temporary, and with God’s Grace, rewarded in Heaven.**

“Temporary” is a lifetime.

Actually, we don’t ‘lose’ God’s Grace as much as we ‘choose’ to give it away, to relinquish it. It’s not an accident when we fall out of Grace. Our sins are a choice, and His Grace is always waiting for us to return.

A programmer writes a buggy program. How much choice does a program have when the bug causes it to crash? My life is the “blue screen of death”

I want my concupiscence gone. I want to be healed of evil in my life. ONLY God can do this, I can’t do this.

It’s a choice. We choose where we go. God has told us, through the Bible and the Church, what keeps us from Heaven, which again, are our choices.

Yes.

A choice between horrific suffering and painful carrying of the cross, with a chance of going to heaven.

Or just existing and going to hell.

Some choice. Almost impossible to win, and seriously easy to lose.

That’s a start!

And the end. I’ve tried time after time after time after time to get closer to God. It didn’t work.

But He is waiting for us. He promises.

I doubt he’s waiting for me. Except possibly to tell me at the end of my life “I do not know you, go away you evildoer!”

(confession, too?)

Yes, definitely. I love going to confession, and do it multiple times a month.

it’s best to come to God as a servant seeking his Master;

I have to be promoted to servant first, right now I’m at “worthless speck of dust” level. Not sure how many levels I have to be promoted through before I can be a servant.

Do you think you won’t suffer if you don’t believe in Him?

I’m not turning atheist. Though I’m at risk of turning deist.

You’ll still suffer. You just won’t have any joy to follow it.

I already have no joy in life.

God wouldn’t create a worthless speck of dust.

Read St. Faustina. She refers to herself as that. So I’m trying to emulate her.

Again, we don’t have to ‘earn’ or be a certain amount of good to desire a relationship with Him.

I’ve tried many things, and none of them work.

He wants that relationship with you!

But he remains silent.

How to have a personal relationship with someone who won’t talk to me?

If my wife stopped talking to me and never talked to me again, how long will it take before my marriage turns into a roommate relationship?

If my wife stops talking to me I’m in trouble. If God stops talking to me, I’m even in MORE trouble!

I’ve accepted that God will never talk to me. If he did, he’d expect more from me - God does not give gifts unconditionally. There is always the catch. So I accept God’s will here, and just accept the corporate relationship that is my only choice now.

It’s really rather a matter of pride to think that you are a better judge of yourself than He is.

So the Catholic teaching of subsidiarity is wrong then? I’m the lowest level, and only the highest level can make the decisions?

Our judgment of ourselves is clouded by our human nature, by our sins, and yes, by the devil.

God created me imperfect and refuses to fix the bugs.

I hate the devil and don’t want him.

I don’t want to go to hell because I hate the devil.
I don’t want to go to heaven because I can’t love God. How can I love someone who I don’t know?

Reading about God and actually knowing him are two different things.

All I want is to have God deliver me from evil. Why is that a bad thing?

 

[Elena321]

Obviously you never read the lives of the saints.

St. Faustina refereed to herself as a “worthless speck of dust”

I’m trying to walk in their footsteps. I have to understand that I am completely without any value to God. All good that “I” happen to do is not me doing it, but God doing it. God crowns his accomplishments in me, not crowning me. I can’t brag before God. Nothing good I do is me doing it.

I have to work my way up to “unworthy servant” status. I got a long way to go before I ever get promoted to that level.

I tend not to read things such as St Faustina because I don’t personally think I have the ability to interpret it correctly and might misinterpret it.
Also,if I’m completely honest,I’m not convinced that Saints lives/experiences/writings can’t be sometimes flawed or even sometimes even a deception from Satan-after all it only makes sense that satan would give most attention to Holy/very Spiritual people.

In the article below Pope Francis states:
“The first obstacle is smallness of stature. Zacchaeus couldn’t see the Master because he was little. Even today we can risk not getting close to Jesus because we don’t feel big enough, because we don’t think ourselves worthy. This is a great temptation; it has to do not only with self-esteem, but with faith itself. For faith tells us that we are “children of God… that is what we are” (1 Jn 3:1). We have been created in God’s own image; Jesus has taken upon himself our humanity and his heart will never be separated from us; the Holy Spirit wants to dwell within us. We have been called to be happy for ever with God!
That is our real “stature”, our spiritual identity: we are God’s beloved children, always. So you can see that not to accept ourselves, to live glumly, to be negative, means not to recognize our deepest identity. It is like walking away when God wants to look at me, trying to spoil his dream for me. God loves us the way we are, and no sin, fault or mistake of ours makes him change his mind. As far as Jesus is concerned – as the Gospel shows – no one is unworthy of, or far from, his thoughts. No one is insignificant. He loves all of us with a special love; for him all of us are important: you are important! God counts on you for what you are, not for what you possess. In his eyes the clothes you wear or the kind of cell phone you use are of absolutely no concern. He doesn’t care whether you are stylish or not; he cares about you! In his eyes, you are precious, and your value is inestimable.”

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/07/31/pope_francis_wyd_krakow_2016_final_mass_homily_(full_text)/1248227

 

[BobCatholic]

We have been called to be happy for ever with God!

Only in heaven.

Not here on this planet.

That is our real “stature”, our spiritual identity: we are God’s beloved children, always.

And I’m tired of getting spanked by daddy. Beloved? Owch. God’s love hurts.

So you can see that not to accept ourselves, to live glumly, to be negative, means not to recognize our deepest identity.

I can’t accept myself. I’m imperfect. I must live glumly because there is no joy on this planet. If God didn’t hold us temporally responsible for the sins of others, life would not be negative.

God loves us the way we are, and no sin, fault or mistake of ours makes him change his mind.

But God does not stop the pain. He won’t deliver me from evil.

he cares about you!

And he proves this by not delivering me from evil? How does that show he cares?

 

[Elena321]

Bobcatholic
Sorry you are suffering so much
Do you mind if I ask why you are unable to feel joy on this planet?
Is it due to Depression or something?

 

[BobCatholic]

Bobcatholic
Sorry you are suffering so much
Do you mind if I ask why you are unable to feel joy on this planet?
Is it due to Depression or something?

No. Definitely not depression. That’s a stereotype.

I’m not supposed to have joy on this planet. We are supposed to carry the cross.

 

[Mummsie]

Bob,

It’s been a while since I’ve been on CAF; but, I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts.

I’m very sorry to hear you are going through this dark time. Can’t say I’ve been in your spot. I can say I’ve never had the “spiritual awakening” so many talk about. My faith has continued to grow in spite of this. I am praying for you.

God Bless You.

Mummsie

 

[Elena321]

No. Definitely not depression. That’s a stereotype.

I’m not supposed to have joy on this planet. We are supposed to carry the cross.

But I think people who carry the cross are also usually able to receive some joy from this life-no?
Take Mother Theresa for example-while she did not “enjoy” the worldly luxuries of going on yachts and holidays I’m sure she had some some joys in her everyday simple life.

 

[BobCatholic]

But I think people who carry the cross are also usually able to receive some joy from this life-no?

I don’t know, and I don’t think it is possible if one is carrying a cross. If one has joy, they’re off the cross for a moment. Christ didn’t get off the cross, and I’ve never seen a verse where we can get off the cross.

Take Mother Theresa for example-while she did not “enjoy” the worldly luxuries of going on yachts and holidays I’m sure she had some some joys in her everyday simple life.

If she had everyday joys, I wouldn’t know. I read her autobiography and didn’t notice this. I did see she had 50 years of Dark Night of the Senses after having an awesome spiritual experience with the living Christ. I never had the latter, but I’m having the former.

 

[ccmcmg]

Bob,

I and many others have offered our help to the best of our abilities. I truly, honestly, deeply, believe that you need to talk to someone in person, a qualified CATHOLIC therapist. The feelings you have, whether right or wrong, are way above our pay grade here. The feelings you are having aren’t normal nor are they how God wants you to feel.

catholictherapists.com/ is where I found mine. He’s truly a God send. Please, PLEASE speak to someone more qualified than we are.

 

[BobCatholic]

Unfortunately, I cannot afford thousands of dollars at a time I’m about to lose my job. This won’t be solved in an hour session, and the cost of lengthy sessions (which is typical) is cost prohibitive.

So I end my discussion here, you’re right, this is above your pay grade, and the pay grade of 99.9999% of people. I was wrong for asking.

I have yet to meet anyone anywhere who has contact with God, who has two-way conversations with God. The only person who could help is such a lucky person.

 

[Elena321]

Please keep posting here as long as you feel it is helping you BobCatholic.
I don’t think the only option is to pay a therapist-a good Priest should be able to help and provide direction for all your feelings/concerns.

Like you mentioned,most people don’t have two way conversations with God.
That shouldn’t mean that the person can’t have joy in life.
Even the Pope (who has clearly taken up his cross) has moments of joy which can be seen by his smile and facial expressions.
Is there anything in life at all that brings you small moments of joy such as a hobby or a baby smiling?