What is the standard against which you measure your understanding of Scripture?

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michaelp:
Actually, I don’t have a problem with Peter being the rock. This is exegetically justifiable. (Although hardly certian). But, even if this is granted, this is far from creating the system that RC creates from this. Just by saying Peter, you are a Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church, you automatically get infallibility, succession, and the like? Come on . . . that is reading alot into the text.

Ephesians 2 says that the Church was built upon the Apostles (including Peter) and Christ as the cornerstone. I believe this. Without them, their confession unto death, their missions, their testomony to the truth which was eventually recorded in Scripture, we would hardly have the Church as we have it today. To to make the jump form this statement in Matt 16 to the Magisterium is too big of a leap of faith to take for me.

Michael
Hi Michael! 👋

I’d like to recommend a book to you. Not to convince you of anything, but just to maybe present things from another perspective. It’s called By What Authority?- An Evnagelical Discovers Catholic Tradition by Mark P. Shea. He may better be able to explain what Tradition is and is not so that you can at least understand it even though you may not agree with it.

If you choose to read it I wonder if you’d please get back to me to let me know if it helped you understand the Catholic position a little bit better.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Help me understand what about infallibility bothers you.
Let me try to explain agian. It is as simple as this: It would be like if some one came to me and told me that they were infallible and they said, “this is how you interpret this passage. Don’t base it on exegesis of what the text says, but what I say it says.”

I ask him “why should I believe you?”

He says because " I agree with Church history."

I say, “OK. How does that make you infallible.”

He says, “Because Church history says it does.”

I say, “What makes me have to believe that part of Chruch history?”

He says, “because I say it does and I am infallible.”

Should I believe him?

I would hope you would say no. But this is EXACTLY the type of question begging circular arguements that I am constantly exposted to. No exegesis of the text at. Honestly, no one is familiar with even basic Bible interpretation.

In short, what problem do I have with infallibility? None, if the Bible says so. But the Bible does not say so anywhere at all when correct exogesis is done. I would challenge anyone to bring ONE correctly interpreted Scripture that teaches either Peterine succession, or Papal infallibility. I am open minded and can be convinced by Scripture.

If it is not in Scripture, or the Magisterium does not show the signs of a prophet (2 Cor 12:12), why should I believe? You tell me.

Thanks again for your time and continued respect and kindness. Either way, I have learned alot.

Michael
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Hi Michael! 👋

I’d like to recommend a book to you. Not to convince you of anything, but just to maybe present things from another perspective. It’s called By What Authority?- An Evnagelical Discovers Catholic Tradition by Mark P. Shea. He may better be able to explain what Tradition is and is not so that you can at least understand it even though you may not agree with it.

If you choose to read it I wonder if you’d please get back to me to let me know if it helped you understand the Catholic position a little bit better.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
Nancy, I cannot even tell you how many books that I have read concerning this. I am very interested in this. I will purchase this book . . . I promise.

Might I suggest to you to go to www.thetheologyprogram.com and watch the videos of Introduction to Theology. At least the first few session.

I pray that you have a great night.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
No, I am not a lone Ranger. That is why I am learning from you–someone of an entirely different tradition.

OK, why do catholics on this site disagree? Because the infallible Magisterium is sometimes hard to interpret? You still have to make up your own mind.

All you have done is pushed the individual interpretation from the infallible Scripture to the infallible Magisterium. It is always and finally the responsibility of the individual. I will just do this with Scripture and you do it with the Magisterium. I deal with our divisions over the interpretation of Scripture, you deal with the divisions over the interpretation of the Magisterium. I fail to see the justification OR the benifit of this system. In theory, it is nice, but in reality it falls way short of creating the difference that you seem to think it does.

Again, this is just my opinion and I fully respect yours. I do enjoy learning from you though.

Phil, would it be possible for you to answer the question I posed a few posts up? Somebody? I really don’t know the answer. It is not a set up.

Michael
 
Originally Posted by michaelp
*Quoting from the Catechism does not help. I don’t accept it as infallible. *
That’s OK. Neither do we.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
I would never deny the fact that Jesus started the Catholic Church. I would just define catholic according to its definition, “universal” or the entire Body of Christ. Isn’t it anachronistic (reading a later definition of a term into its earlier definiton) to define what the early Church meant by catholic to mean Roman Catholic?

Michael
Hi Michael! 👋

It doesn’t mean Roman Catholic. The Roman rite of the Catholic Church is only one of over 20 rites in the Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
There are no divisions. There is one body of teaching. Individuals are choosing for themselves whether or not to accept the Bible’s teaching

You interpret the Magisterium and have your divisions, we interpret the Bible and have our division. I am still not seeing the difference.

Hopefully in the Love of Him,

Michael
You keep claiming that Catholics have differences of opinions regarding the teachings of the Magisterium - could you please produce 3 significant ones?

Your contention that the difficulty in interpreting the Catechism is analogous to the difficulty in iterpreting Scripture is simply untenable. Remember your little comment about hermeneutics? Lexicons? History? Languages? Exegesis? etc? None of that applies to the Catechism. And it provides CLEAR AND CONCISE

answers to FUNDAMENTAL questions. Of course lengthy discussion is given to almost any topic, but a YES of NO answer typically starts of the discussion so even my 8 year old could know. For example: Should infants be baptized? YES and then a lengthy discussion follows. Is artificial contraception a sin? YES and a lengthy discussion follows. And these answers WILL NEVER CHANGE over time - it’s not open to debate. How can you compare this to all of us trying to go backward in time to understand the Bible individually?

If I had to guess, I would say that you have come to recognize the inherent flaw of individual Bible interpretation, but rather than embrace that realization you are trying to drag down the Catholic system so that it stands no better in your own mind. That way you can “honestly” justify staying right where you are. Please don’t think this means I think any more of myself or less of you - I don’t. I’m not particularly intelligent and certainly not holy. These are just my observations based on the facts presented and the projection of my understanding of human nature into the whole equation.

Phil
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
That’s OK. Neither do we.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
Really, is that true???

How do you get the infallible teaching of the Church?

If the catechism is not infallible, why trust it over another interpretation.

This would really help me not to misunderstand you.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
…baptism removing just “original” sin…
We Catholics believe that baptism removes all sin, both original and actual. The bible says so as well.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**1265 ** Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.
God love you,
Paul
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Hi Michael! 👋

It doesn’t mean Roman Catholic. The Roman rite of the Catholic Church is only one of over 20 rites in the Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
What is the essential difference?
 
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michaelp:
In short, what problem do I have with infallibility? None, if the Bible says so. But the Bible does not say so anywhere at all when correct exogesis is done. I would challenge anyone to bring ONE correctly interpreted Scripture that teaches either Peterine succession, or Papal infallibility. I am open minded and can be convinced by Scripture.

If it is not in Scripture, or the Magisterium does not show the signs of a prophet (2 Cor 12:12), why should I believe? You tell me.

Thanks again for your time and continued respect and kindness. Either way, I have learned alot.

Michael
Michael, Michael, Michael-

What am I to do with you? We really need to revisit the whole “bible” concept. You do realize, of course, that you have to trust history to provide you with the “Bible”. Can you p(name removed by moderator)oint exactly who identified the books of the Bible and by what authority they did it? The bible does not make these claims for itself. I don’t mean to shift the thread, but this is not a small problem. You make the claim to not accept extrabiblical sources but that is precisely what you do every single time you open up a Bible.

Phil
 
Your contention that the difficulty in interpreting the Catechism is analogous to the difficulty in iterpreting Scripture is simply untenable. Remember your little comment about hermeneutics? Lexicons? History? Languages? Exegesis? etc? None of that applies to the Catechism. And it provides CLEAR AND CONCISE
Clear and concise to who. Not to me. Not to someone from a different culture TODAY. Many people do not think like Westerners and therefore would need it contextualized.

All information is by definition interpreted. People interpret information through their own history, experince, emotion, culture, language, and most importantly, presuppositions. So to say that the Church does not need to be interpreted because it is contemporary does not make any since and misunderstands the complexities of the aquisition of knowledge.
If I had to guess, I would say that you have come to recognize the inherent flaw of individual Bible interpretation, but rather than embrace that realization you are trying to drag down the Catholic system so that it stands no better in your own mind. That way you can “honestly” justify staying right where you are. Please don’t think this means I think any more of myself or less of you - I don’t. I’m not particularly intelligent and certainly not holy. These are just my observations based on the facts presented and the projection of my understanding of human nature into the whole equation.
No really. I have nothing holding me back from accepting your teaching but its justification. No one has given me any justification for it that would ease my heart.

I was asked earlier why I disagreed with the ultimate authority and infallibility of the Chruch. This is what I put. I am very sincere about this. You have to have stuggled with this as well, tell me how you get by it:

Let me try to explain agian. It is as simple as this: It would be like if some one came to me and told me that they were infallible and they said, “this is how you interpret this passage. Don’t base it on exegesis of what the text says, but what I say it says.”

I ask him “why should I believe you?”

He says because " I agree with Church history."

I say, “OK. How does that make you infallible.”

He says, “Because Church history says it does.”

I say, “What makes me have to believe that part of Chruch history?”

He says, “because I say it does and I am infallible.”

Should I believe him?

I would hope you would say no. But this is EXACTLY the type of question begging circular arguements that I am constantly exposted to. No exegesis of the text at. Honestly, no one is familiar with even basic Bible interpretation.

In short, what problem do I have with infallibility? None, if the Bible says so. But the Bible does not say so anywhere at all when correct exogesis is done. I would challenge anyone to bring ONE correctly interpreted Scripture that teaches either Peterine succession, or Papal infallibility. I am open minded and can be convinced by Scripture.

Thanks,

Michael

Phil
 
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ahimsaman72:
Strengthen my sheep, feed my lambs, etc. could be said of every pastor in every congregation in the Christian faith. To build a system and faith based on such ambiguous verses is irresponsible
.

Hi ahimsaman72! 👋

You need to remember, the Church never bases her teachings on scripture, rather scripture is based on the teachings of the Church.

The stories and teaching were passed on and talked about and explained for decades before pen was ever taken to paper and for centuries before Christians even knew which writings were the inspired word of God.
I originally came to the forums because I came to the website looking for answers. I then considered the possibly of converting. Then when I came to the forums and saw what the Church deeply believes and says - I changed my mind. I went to see a priest - I visited mass a couple times - found it very nice and appealing.
Can you elaborate on that a bit more. What about the Church caused you to think maybe that was where God was calling you and what about her has since convinced you that it’s not where God wants you? Are you absolutely certain that you weren’t hearing God’s voice that first time? Are you absolutely certain that it was God’s voice you were hearing the next time?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
What is the essential difference [between rites within Catholicism]?
The several rites within the Catholic Church differ mainly in the form of their liturgies, their calendar of feast days and solemnities, and certain disciplines for clergy and religious. All are in complete harmony with Rome. This is kind of cool because it shows that there are many equally valid ways of being a Catholic.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1203 The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman rite, but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite, or those of certain religious orders) and the Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites. In “faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way.”
 
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michaelp:
Very good. This is the exact point that I would make. To take such a passage and turn it into the RC system is not justified to me.
Hi Michael! 👋

No one took a passage and turned it into the Catholic Church (remember, “Roman” only refers to one of over 20 rites in the Catholic Church). The Church existed for decades before those words were ever written down and for centuries before Christians knew which of the masses of Christian writings were God’s inspired word.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Philthy:
Michael, Michael, Michael-

What am I to do with you? We really need to revisit the whole “bible” concept. You do realize, of course, that you have to trust history to provide you with the “Bible”. Can you p(name removed by moderator)oint exactly who identified the books of the Bible and by what authority they did it? The bible does not make these claims for itself. I don’t mean to shift the thread, but this is not a small problem. You make the claim to not accept extrabiblical sources but that is precisely what you do every single time you open up a Bible.

Phil
Not really, I trust that God led the Church to recognize what books are in the Bible, not to determine. BIG DIFFERENCE. I believe that God is sovereign and would not let such an important matter go unsolved. He does not have to have an infallible institution to guide people to truth. God, led the body of Christ (not simply an institutionalized church ) to the right books. It comes down to an issue of God’s providential care and guidence through the Holy Spirit.

You jump from this to: the institutionalized church is infallible and all believers are subject to this institution. There is no justification for this jump. I believe that God works through the community to lead them. I believe in the many of the Traditions that have been handed down so long as they agree with Scripture (that God lead his people to recognize). I believe that God leads the body of Christ. I am often confused with the way He leads, but I do believe that He is in control. I rest in this.

Michael
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Hi Michael! 👋

No one took a passage and turned it into the Catholic Church (remember, “Roman” only refers to one of over 20 rites in the Catholic Church). The Church existed for decades before those words were ever written down and for centuries before Christians knew which of the masses of Christian writings were God’s inspired word.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
I do understand this, but I use RC for short to describe the institutionalized church believed in by RCs. I don’t like to use the word Catholic because I believe myself to be one. Remember, I read alot of Church history and identify with them just as you do. Therefore, I would claim the title “Catholic” as well. Just not Roman Catholic.

“We all walk through the gardens of Church history and pick the flowers that look best to us.”

-John Hannah

Michael
 
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PaulDupre:
The several rites within the Catholic Church differ mainly in the form of their liturgies, their calendar of feast days and solemnities, and certain disciplines for clergy and religious. All are in complete harmony with Rome. This is kind of cool because it shows that there are many equally valid ways of being a Catholic.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Thanks Paul.
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
No one took a passage and turned it into the Catholic Church
Thanks Catholic4aReasn,
This is probably the most difficult thing to get across to non-Catholics, and it frustrates the heck out of us. Every Protestant church was formed because someone interpreted a bible verse a certain way; now everyone assumes that that’s how all Churches started, including the Catholic Church.

But the Catholic Church was started by Jesus, handed down from the apostles to their successors the bishops, etc, etc.
2 Timothy 2:2 (Timothy was a bishop)
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
After nearly four centuries the Catholic Church compiled and published the bible as we know it today.

The bible came from the Church, not the Church from the bible. The books of the canon were chosen by the Church because they taught what the Church teaches, not the other way around.

We Catholics have to keep repeating this like a mantra. It is the only way we will get it into the heads of those who have been polluted by “reformation” thinking.

God bless you,
Paul
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
.
You need to remember, the Church never bases her teachings on scripture, rather scripture is based on the teachings of the Church.
Wow! You actually admit to this? Don’t you see this as circular? How do you justify this system? I know I keep on asking, but I will try again.

Like if someone was to ask you: “Why do you believe that the Church has ultimate authority?” What do you say if you cannot draw on Scipture for support, since it submits to the Church?

Look forward to your response, but I may be going to bed. Thanks.
 
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