What is the standard against which you measure your understanding of Scripture?

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Michael, I see substantial resistance in your posts but you still have an open mind that deserves to be fed. Study everything you can from orthodox Catholic authors and you will warm to the Church. You see before you the two thousand year old Catholic Church. You see before you Christianity in its fullness. You see before you something that could only exist after two thousand years by Divine Providence. You see before you a tremendously powerful work of Christ in our midst.
Thanks for the encouragement. I just ordered four more books about coming to the Catholic faith.

I do have to be honest with you though, I would have no love lost for breaking with the Protestant tradition. I, however, am responsible to God for my justification of knowledge.
Search the Church’s teachings and really know the teachings of scripture and the Early Church Fathers. You will be startled by the beauty and power of God’s grace and you will hunger for the unity that can only be appreciated through recieving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus in the Eucharist. The Catholic Church is your ultimate spiritual home this side of eternity.
I agree, I would just not agree right now that the Roman Catholic church is.

Thanks for your time.

Michael
 
Church Militant:
But you, of all people should know that it is the custom of the writers and speakers of Christ’s day to repeat what they wanted to emphasize 3 times. The context doesn’t support your theory at all. It is more obvious that Jesus was building Kepha up to perform the job that he had chosen him for. As for your suppositon that what has evolved is not what was intended I would point out that it works…very well… and has remained faithful to Christ for over 2,000 years. Apostolic succession is scriptural, just as the priesthood in Judaism was successive (and authoritative, I might add).

I might also add that even in modern times the Catholic Church has stood its ground on moral issues such as contraception, when all other denoms fell into acceptance beginning in 1930.

I would rather die than not be Catholic…regardless of all the debates and attacks, deceptions and misunderstandings…yeah & even the scandals…none of it is any worse than any of the rest of those so-called NT churches that I was part of. All the exegesis and soteriology, & eschatology don’t really mean much. I know truth when I hear it…I know the Holy Spirit when I encounter Him w/in me…and I know forgiveness that is in line w/ what Christ promised. The sacraments make more sense than anything that any other church offers and no one else does Communion scripturally…no one else has that miracle that Jesus promised & commanded taking place every Mass. The only way I can explain it to you is that it is very much like the way you felt the moment that you “received Jesus as your personal Lord & savior”…we receive Him into our hearts, souls, body and mind…our very being. THAT is the reality of the Eucharist that will keep me Catholic no matter what.

Regardless of my own inabilty to adequately explain all this to you, it’s all real. Hey…take it up w/Scott Hahn or Karl Keating! They handle it better than most of us on the forums do…we aren’t the ones you need to debate with…we’re still learning it all. Or at least I am…I know what I believe…but I can’t always get it accross to you guys as well as I’d like. It seems so incredibly simple to me…clear…that I can’t understand why you don’t see it too. :yawn: :sleep:e
I do appreciate your honesty. Thanks for the continued encouragement.

Have a great night.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
I do appreciate your honesty. Thanks for the continued encouragement.

Have a great night.

Michael
 
Concerning John 21, even R. Brown denied that this establish that Peter was the Pope.

Not that you care, but the IVP Commentary says,

“These texts also should speak to some Roman Catholic concepts of Peter and the role of shepherding. Stählin argues that the three questions reflect a liturgical pattern leading to the establishment of Peter’s pastoral ministry,167 but this notion surely has to be read into the text, as Beasley-Murray has correctly noted.168%between%
But more to the point is the fact that Vatican I in its concern for the papacy quoted these three verses together with Matt 16:16–19 in making its dogmatic statement that “Peter the Apostle was constituted by Christ the Lord as chief of all the apostles and as visible head of the Church on earth.”169 As a result of this statement many other comments have since been made by Roman Catholic scholars. Among them Lapide’s declaration is worthy of note. He opines that “on his departure into heaven Christ here designates his Vicar upon earth and creates Peter the Supreme Pontiff, in order that one Church may be governed by one Pastor.”170 The concept of the pastor/shepherd in this type of argument is rooted in the idea of the shepherd king like David who was a ruler over Israel (cf. 2 Sam 5:2). The question, of course, that can be raised is whether that is the meaning of the present text. But this commentary is hardly the format to discuss the papacy or whether whatever might be implied concerning Peter applies to those who claim to be his successors.
Fortunately, current biblical scholars on both sides of the papacy issue have become a little more irenic than those of previous eras.171 Brown, for example, who was a revered member of the Pontifical Council before his death, not only argued that Peter’s authority was hardly absolute172 but he clearly disagreed with those who considered that these three verses meant that Peter was “made shepherd over the other disciples or over the other members of the Twelve.”173

167 See TDNT 9.134.

168 See Beasley-Murray, John, 405.

169 See Enchiridion Symbolorum, 3053–55.

170 See C. Lapide cited in Hoskyns and Davey, The Fourth Gospel, 557.

171 The acidic remarks of Lagrange (Saint Jean, 528–30), who attacked Protestants as narrow and out of touch, are probably no more acidic than many Protestant pulpiteers who consider the Roman Catholics unbiblical.

172 See Brown, John, 2.1115.

173 Ibid., 2.1116.

174 Bultmann does not consider that Peter needed to be reinstated or rehabilitated (John, 551).

%between%Borchert, G. L. (2002). Vol. 25B: John 12-21. The new American commentary, New International Version (Page 336). Nashville: Broadman & Holman.
 
Hello, Michael, it is the non- theologeon again. I noticed that you purchased four books about coming into the Catholic Church and that is great. But can I make a humble suggestion?Please pick up some books written by the some of the saints, such as St.Teresa of Avila interior Castles, St.John of the Cross Dark night of the soul,St.Therese A Story of a soul.The fruits of the saints speak volumes.God Bless:gopray:
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Hello, Michael, it is the non- theologeon again. I noticed that you purchased four books about coming into the Catholic Church and that is great. But can I make a humble suggestion?Please pick up some books written by the some of the saints, such as St.Teresa of Avila interior Castles, St.John of the Cross Dark night of the soul,St.Therese A Story of a soul.The fruits of the saints speak volumes.God Bless:gopray:
Thanks, I have already read the Dark Night. (been though the dark night as well!!) I suggest it from time to time.

Michael
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Hello, Michael, it is the non- theologeon again. I noticed that you purchased four books about coming into the Catholic Church and that is great. But can I make a humble suggestion?Please pick up some books written by the some of the saints, such as St.Teresa of Avila interior Castles, St.John of the Cross Dark night of the soul,St.Therese A Story of a soul.The fruits of the saints speak volumes.God Bless:gopray:
I know that you are not searching Lisa, but I would like to suggest you go to www.thetheologyprogram.com and watch the Intro course. You will be able to see better where I and others like me are coming from.

Have a great night. And I am going to bed!!!
 
You are right, I am not searching. I was led, here not by theological arguments,nor debates,but by a simple direct and specific prayer, that has brought peace beyond anything I have ever experienced among other things that are to numerous to get into on this post. God works in so many ways and a sometimes our preconcieved ideas about him get in the way.I know where you are coming from, but what is different than some other posters that I run into in this forum, is a very genuine search for truth,and despite what you may think about what Catholics believe or what you have been taught,you are respectful and charitable and last but certainly not least you are not hateful. God Bless You and Goodnight:blessyou:

PS Don’t forget to pray:gopray:
 
Wow, look at what has been going on since I have been away!

Michael,

“Short answer: I can’t.”

Neither could I.

"Long answer:

This is overly simplistic. Doctrines develop over time and are articulated in the midst of controversy."

Yes but not when its a contradiction.

"Example (I think that this will help you understand where I am coming from):
  1. Trinity (325): Before this time the majority of the Church believed in the eternal subordination of the Son or modalism. Neither you or I could find our Trinitarian theology before this time except in seed form (although there was alot of seed)."
This is not quite true. The dogma was in a state of development and the subordination view was held by some. It took the Council at Niceae to finally correct those that held this view.

“2. Hypostatic Union (451): Before this time people believed in a variety of heresies concerning the nature of Christ. Neither you or I could find our Christological theology before this time except in seed form (although there was alot of seed).”

Again, not quite true. There was dialog between the Schools of Antioch and Alexandria and this debate got really heated, but Church of Rome settled the issue–please refer to the Tome of Leo.

“3. Atonement was made to God (1100): Before this time, the majority of the Church believed that the atonement was a price paid to Satan (or some form of this). Neither you or I could find our Soteriology before this time except in seed form (although there was alot of seed).”

I would have to do more research on this one.

“4. Scripture alone (1600): Before this time people often elevated tradition to the same level as Scripture. I could find our Soteriology before this time except in seed form (although there was alot of seed).”

Doesn’t seem like a contradiction to assert, “Before this time people often elevated tradition to the same level as Scripture” and the development of sola scriptura?

'You see, neither of us could find our current articulation of theological beliefs before today. Doctrine is developed and articulated in time."

Yes, doctrines do develope over time, but what I believe does not contradict 1600 years of church history. Sola fide, sola scriptura and Evangelical views on the Eucharist and baptism do.

If we were to come to someone and ask them to choose between the two of us as to who belong to the historical Church, who would they choose? Who is on a historical island?
 
The measure in which scriptures were primarily proven to be inspired was LIVING DIVINE TRADITION. Without that, there would be no bible. The Bible IS Tradition. One mode of transmission being different from the other does not make one inferior over the other.

Catholicism contains LIVING DIVINE TRADITION, yet your above posted web site admits to only having theories about it. If every bible on the planet were to be destroyed, the Word of God would continue in the DIVINE LIVING TRADITION of the Catholic Church.

Catholics CAN interpret the Bible for themselves, as long as their interpretation does not conflict with the teachings of the Church. Given that there are over 25 approaches to interpreting scripture, according to the Pontifical Bible Commission, that gives Catholics a much deeper and richer appreciation for the bible than “bible alone” theory. Sola scriptura denigrates the bible.

As I browsed your web site, I read the book review:
Mary: A Catholic-Evangelical Debate by Dwight Longenecker and David Gustafson.

I see that David Gustafson, representing the Catholic position, is an unknown and inexperienced debater, a student at the anti-Catholic Bob Jones University, whose comments are full of holes, and makes compromises to accomodate evangelical prejudices. Do you think that was a fair and unbiased selection?

The only reason the Church Fathers compiled scriptures into a bible was so they knew what could be legitimately proclaimed during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This historical fact is rejected by reformers, and often overlooked by Catholics.

All the classical Protestant confessions of faith expressing the beliefs of the various Reformation branches include the doctrinal proclamations of the ancient Catholic Council of Nicea, whereby Christ is professed to be “of one essence” with the Father. Which leads to a question.

Was the Council of Nicae Protestant or Catholic?

This resource will answer the question.
envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.4/coverstory.html

kepha
 
Michael: See catholic.com/library/proving_inspiration.asp. It argues that Protestants use circular reasoning to defend the inspiration of Sacred Scripture, while our reasoning is spiral.

In regards to the ongoing discussion on ‘who interprets the Magisterium’, I’d like to say a few more words. You are right to say that every culture and time has its own particular circumstances that must be taken into account when interpreting documents from any given time period or culture. However, this is not such a significant problem for the Magisterium. The Magisterium is a living teacher. The Spirit works through her in EVERY generation in new and unique ways. She conveys the same Truths to each generation in a way that they will understand. The Catechism is not hard to understand…at least if you read entire chapters at a time to discern the context. The Bible and the Catechism can not be compared. The Catechism is a ‘catechism’, the Bible is not. The Bible is not meant to be a complete, orderly, systematic summary of the Christian Faith…the Catechism is. (Don’t get me wrong…the Bible is a ‘living teacher’ as well, in that the Spirit still speaks through it…but the Magisterium can convey the same Truth using different means for each particular cultural context as it arises).

There are differences of opinion on certain mattes among Catholics. This is to be expected. The Apostles spoke with authority…and, dare I say it, infallibly. Yet even then there were differences of opinion on many matters. (Remember that the Council of Jerusalem had to be called to settle the issue of circumcision and such). What the Church has infallibly defined we can no longer disagree on…but as for other matters…

For example, until the 4th century, the Canon of Scripture had not been officially defined; thus, some bishops differed regarding what books they used during the Liturgy. There was much consensus, but there was also disagreement, as to what constituted Scripture.

Today it is the same with other issues that have yet to have been defined.

In other cases, certain doctrines that have been defined can still be debated concerning the finer points of the matter that the Church has not yet felt the need to clarify. There is nothing that says we must know everything! This still is, in my opinion, far superior to the Protestant system. Those major doctrinal areas that the Church has defined we can not disagree on…Protestants can. Protestants can disagree on such major doctrinal issues as:
  1. The nature of the Eucharist
  2. The means of obtaining salvation (Sinner’s prayer model or baptism)
  3. Whether salvation can be lost or not
  4. Church government and structure
Catholics who are faithful to the Magisterium can not disagree on those issues that the Church has clearly laid on in black and white. There is no interpretation required, as to the basic message. If the Church tells us “Abortion is evil”…abortion is evil. What else could that mean?!

God bless you,
In Christ,
Tyler
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
What is the standard against which you measure the accuracy of your understanding of scripture?

In other words, how can you be certain that you are not unknowlingly mistaken about your understanding of scripture? What do you compare your understanding against to make sure you’re not mistaken?

I would answer much as ahimsa did in his first post - I don’t think there is any one single standard, but rather a whole handful of standards, which AFAICS work by corroborating and correcting each other. How the question is answered will also depend on the degree of detail in which one looks at the text - some people can check the English of a translated NT against a Greek NT, for example; for others however, that is not feasible. So a seminarian might well give a different answer from most of the rest of us.​

IMO the realisation that one is liable to error in a million different ways is part of of the basic psychology of a Christian - we all make mistakes. Bible study helps to compensate for this a bit. But it is really God’s grace that does all the work - whether a Christian is studying Scripture, cooking a meal, checking accounts, or solving a maths problem. God is not needed only when we are “being religious” 🙂 ##
 
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michaelp:
But Peter and Paul went around raising the dead to substanitate their authority. Believe me, as I have posted before, I would follow the Pope if raised someone from the dead. Then there would be justification for me believing him. I REALLY WOULD.

Paul says that their are sign for someone who claims to have apostolic authority:

.
Just curious if this is a “litmus test” for you. If not, then come home to Rome. If it is, then you will be homeless if no one raises another from the dead.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelp

*I agree, but is it the infallible authority.

Yes the Church is the bulwark (what an archaic term BTW) of truth, but we do not represent that truth perfectly. *

Hi Michael!

No one claims that the Church represents the truth perfectly. As you’ve pointed out over and over, she doesn’t always present the truth in the most understandable terms. Popes haven’t always spoken up when they should have. But those things aren’t covered by the charism of infallibility. All the holy Spirit does is make sure that when the Church teaches officially on a matter of faith or morals something that is binding on all the faithful that what is taught is not wrong. That doesn’t mean that it will be clear. That doesn’t mean it will be said when it should be said or how it should be said or in the best was it could possibly be said.

The Church cannot function as the God-ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) if the possibility exists that what she is upholding, protecting and defending is, in fact, error.

I’m getting the idea that you think there’s far more to this infallibility things than there actually is.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
Wow! You do not give the most important and first job of interpretation to the Magisterium, but to regular lay folk? Wow! Well, I guess we are alot more alike than you think.
Nah, we’re not alike there at all. In my mind the more important of the two jobs is not getting the words down on paper but making sure they are not misunderstood.
But here is the problem. You have an infallible Magisterium interpreting a fallible translation of the text. Now you have real problems.
It’s not a problem for God and in fact a very desirable situation. If you have a fallible translation but someone who cannot err in his interpretation you’re in a far better situation that having a fallible translation with fallible interpreters.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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ahimsaman72:
Thank you very much. Couldn’t find it - you supplied it. Pretty clear to me. You ain’t Roman Catholic - you ain’t got a prayer baby.

Peace…
Hi ahimsaman72! 👋

Your above statement doesn’t reflect Catholic teaching at all but rather a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. It’s easy to take isolated text, completely removed from historical context and draw false conclusions. “Text without context = pretext” as they say. People do it with scripture all the time so I don’t know why it surprises me when they do it with other documents as well. I pray that you don’t actually going around telling people that this is Catholic teaching because you’d be misinforming them.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
I am sorry, but you are reading things into the text to justify a theology you already have.

Read this concerning your interpretation of John to begin with and then we will move to an exegesis of Matt. (I know, you are not qualified, but since I am such a nice guy, I will walk you through it:D )

Here is what you have to ask yourself about Peter’s restoration? why is it recorded? What was the author’s intent with this passage?

  1. *]to affirm Peter as the head of the church with unquestioned authority. And that this authority was to be passed on to successors? That would be reading something into the authors intent that just cannot be found unless you place it there yourself. With this hermeneutic you can make the Scriptures say just about anything.
    *]to illustrate a basic principle that even when people fail, even to the point of weakness in denying of Christ because of outside pressure, God’s grace is there. And that God uses us in spit of our sinful past.

    Now which one do you believe? It can’t be both since the first is loaded with eisegesis (reading preconcieved theology into a text rather than drawing your theology from the text).

  1. Michael, Michael, Michael,
    You do this often. You forget that the Church and therefore her teachings predate the bible. The Church does not read preconceived theology into a text. The theology was there first, the text is written about it. To draw theology from the text is to do it backwards. The teachings HAD to have been there first in order for the writers to have anything to write about.

    It seems to always be an “either/or” situation with you when in reality it’s often a “both/and” situation.

    In Christ,
    Nancy 🙂
 
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ahimsaman72:
If the magisterium trusts theologians and scholars with translating the Holy Scriptures, why would they think the theologians could be wrong on doctrine? Oh - because only the magisterium and pope are infallible - seems very odd - very odd indeed.

Peace…
Hi ahimsaman72! 👋

I think you may have a very basic but very deep misunderstanding of what papal infallibility is and is not. If you have a chance, could you post your understanding of papal infallibility so I can help you better understand it. Not to convince you that it’s true…you’ll probably still disagree with it. But it’d be much better if you’re disagreeing with something the Church actually teaches rather than a misunderstanding of it.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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