What is the standard against which you measure your understanding of Scripture?

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michaelp:
I teach to people like this. I just give them the Gospel and teach them the truth. People don’t have to be able to read the Scripture to understand it. In fact, most people just learn the truths of Scripture through those who are gifted to teach. But it is still the truths of Scripture that they learn, just as it was in the early Church.

Michael
Correct. They have no real choice other than trusting in some one else for the content and meaning of Scripture. They have child-like faith and will be blessed. Sometimes I wonder if we (you and I) aren’t too smart for our own good. I’m not saying “blind faith” is good, just that it is probably not so much with the mind that God leads us, but with the heart. And when we build our lives trusting our minds and intellect, I think we lose touch with our hearts and very possibly close the door on Him.
Y’know, I catechize my son at home. We go through a little workbook that has all sorts of stuff for kids (He’s almost 9). I often can’t make it through the lesson without crying at the simplicity and beauty of the basic message which is rooted in Scripture. It goes straight to my heart. When I read the bible alone, it is very different - very intellectual. I’m analyzing, looking for theology, etc,etc. I’ve come to the conclusion that I am over-intellectualizing my faith. What I need instead is to bury myself more in prayer, adoration and BEING Christian. I can’t carry the weight of determining doctrine on my own shoulders - I’m comfortable trusting that to the Church. I sympathize with how you feel and the reasons you believe various things. And I don’t presume to judge you, but I just want to make sure that you keep your heart truly open - that is where God will answer your prayers - not in your mind.

God bless,

Phil
 
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Philthy:
Y’know, I catechize my son at home. We go through a little workbook that has all sorts of stuff for kids (He’s almost 9).
Hi Phil! 👋

Mind if I ask which workbook/series you are using with your son?

Thanks!

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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michaelp:
A quick note to Lisa, Paul, Phil, Dennis, and Pax,

I just wanted to let you all know how much I appreciate you and your continued diligence in this thread. You all have helped my tremendously. I also want you to know that even though I am not convinced as of yet of these issues, I am convinced of your love for Christ. There is nothing more important than that.

You all are very smart and you are great Catholics. I am glad to have this exposure to you all since I have not met many Catholics who know, much less follow, their faith.

Please know that I love Christ more than my own life. I am ready at any time to give my life for the Gospel. I pray every day that God would make me more like Him and less like myself. I am not on an academic adventure so that I know “more” than the next guy. I am in persuit of Him, my only reason and purpose. I pray that He would lead me and my family to a greater devotion to Him. I pray the Psalms that He would “bend my heart toward him,” “open my eyes to the wonderful things of his word,” “make my joy in him full,” and oh, now I can’t remember the forth one!!

Anyway, I thought that you should hear this once again.

In Him,
Michael
How beautiful…and also thank you for the rich compliments - you are on the right path and putting Christ first. I wish I could say my faith is as deep and that I am as spiritually mature, but that would be a lie. I am moving in the right direction though and it is inspiring to hear of your love. Thanks for sharing…

Phil

PS Obviously I hadn’t read this when I wrote my prior post about intellect vs heart…
 
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michaelp:
Again, this is not a big problem for me. I also see exegetical warrent for it. I can see how it would be interpreted literally. I have a hard time thinking that it just symbolic sense people were dying because they were taking it unworthly. Scripture seems to suggest to me that there is something more there than meets the eye. I don’t, however, see it as being savific. In other words, I don’t see it as giving of the merits of Christ. But I do think that it is more than just symbolic.

Michael
Whosoever does not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood has no LIFE in him.Hello, Michael:) How do you understand this scripture, since you can’t see the Eucharist as symbolic in nature,but, you don’t see it as salvific?God Bless
 
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michaelp:
Again, this is not a big problem for me. I also see exegetical warrent for it. I can see how it would be interpreted literally. I have a hard time thinking that it just symbolic sense people were dying because they were taking it unworthly. Scripture seems to suggest to me that there is something more there than meets the eye. I don’t, however, see it as being savific. In other words, I don’t see it as giving of the merits of Christ. But I do think that it is more than just symbolic.

Michael
This is clearly your avenue to conversion - if only you knew how appropriate that is! Once you accept that the Eucharist is truly Jesus’ body, blood,soul and divinity how can you possibly separate it from his salvific nature? And where, exactly does that fit in the Protestant arena? Lutheran? I don’t think there are too many good fits for a Real Presence in Protestantism - so where will you go? Hmmmmmm… I told you you’re a "Lone Ranger type! 😉 And don’t forget when you use the term “salvific” in a Catholic context, it is not the “whole ball of wax” as in OSAS. There is still a life of faith, obedience, and humility that remains to be lived by His grace. Probably better to think of it as a sacrament which is: A visible sign, instituted by Christ, which communicates the invisible reality of God’s grace.

Phil
 
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michaelp:
Again, this is not a big problem for me. I also see exegetical warrent for it. I can see how it would be interpreted literally. I have a hard time thinking that it just symbolic sense people were dying because they were taking it unworthly. Scripture seems to suggest to me that there is something more there than meets the eye. I don’t, however, see it as being savific. In other words, I don’t see it as giving of the merits of Christ. But I do think that it is more than just symbolic.

Michael
Michael,

You are on the right track. Study and pursue this all in greater detail. If you will accept that the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ then certain things must follow. If the Eucharist is indeed the body and blood of Christ then everything else the Church says about it is true. If it is the same body and blood of Jesus that was sacrificied on the cross and is indeed re-presented to us in time at the mass then it is salvific. If we deny that the true presence of Jesus Christ’s body and blood in the Eucharist is salvific, then we must also deny that the same body and blood of Jesus that was sacrificed on the cross is salvific. They are one in the same.
 
Michael,

I have thought a little more about your requirement for signs and miracles from the Catholic Church leaders to prove their authenticity as coming from God.

If your requirement is correct then we must also believe that all Christian believers must also work great signs and wonders because scripture requires it in the same fashion that you believe scripture requires it from the appointed leadership.

Please refer to Mark 16:15-17 where it says, " And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Neither you or I have probably done such things, but we are believers. It is not necessary that everyone work signs in every age. Jesus even says that the Jews had to listen to the scribes and pharisees because they sat on Moses seat. The scribes and pharisees were not working signs and wonders. We only see this appearing at specific times in the OT with certain of the prophets and leaders. God’s annointings take different forms depending upon His plan and purposes.

If you do want miracles you can research Catholic miracles very easily. They are numerous and verifiable.
 
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Pax:
Michael,

I have thought a little more about your requirement for signs and miracles from the Catholic Church leaders to prove their authenticity as coming from God.

If your requirement is correct then we must also believe that all Christian believers must also work great signs and wonders because scripture requires it in the same fashion that you believe scripture requires it from the appointed leadership.

Please refer to Mark 16:15-17 where it says, " And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Neither you or I have probably done such things, but we are believers. It is not necessary that everyone work signs in every age. Jesus even says that the Jews had to listen to the scribes and pharisees because they sat on Moses seat. The scribes and pharisees were not working signs and wonders. We only see this appearing at specific times in the OT with certain of the prophets and leaders. God’s annointings take different forms depending upon His plan and purposes.

If you do want miracles you can research Catholic miracles very easily. They are numerous and verifiable.
Michael, we do however have plenty of Saints that God has sent that do those miracles.God Bless
 
Michael,

I’ve worked up something on the question of infallibility but it is much too lengthy for a post. I’ll send it via email. It is not exhaustive, but it has some good things in it.
 
In regards to the originally posted question, I measure my understanding of Scripture to what the Church teaches. This is because according to historical facts and biblical historical testamony, Jesus founded a Church upon Peter and the apostles and He said that we must believe the Gospel that His Church teaches, otherwise we would be condemned.
------------- Mark 16:15 ------------
15 And he said to them, "Go into
all the world and preach the gospel
to the whole creation.
16 He who believes and is baptized
will be saved; but he who does not
believe will be condemned.
The fact that the new believers of this Gospel the Apostles taught would sometimes speak in new tongues, etc., was a sign for these believers themselves to help increase their faith. (see Corinthians for the reason for tongues), and to help the unbelievers believe. The signs were not primarily mark of authority, because scriptures says the signs would accompany believers, (the context refers to those who listened to the Gospel) not necessarily the apostles or teachers, even though some did perform miracles, because they also were believers. If new tongues were a sign of authority, the Corinthians, who spoke in new tongues, because of their lack of faith, would make sad leaders of the Church.

Now, I see no where, either in scripture or in the testamony of the early Christians where Jesus said we could reject the Gospel that the leaders of His Church taught, and instead make up our own Gospel based on our interpretation of scripture. Those who make their own interpretation the the standard, have rejected the words of Jesus.

In other words, Jesus made the leaders of His Church the proclaimers of the Gospel. If these apostles had all died soon after Pentecost, we would have no Gospel, and no NT scriptures. Thus, the Gospel comes through the Church. Those who didn’t believe what the Church taught, “would be condemned”.

Since Jesus required the people to believe the Gospel the leaders of the Church taught and preached, by definition, the people had to believe apostolic Tradition. Tradition means all that is handed down apart from Scripture. Everyone in the NT learned the Gospel by believing the apostolic Traditions taught by the Church.
No one first learned the Gospel of Jesus Christ by reading scripture, or by having scripture read to him. No one can proclaim the Gospel to himself. Faith comes from hearing.
And since all the early Christians (the fatheres of the Church) agreed on teachings that had been handed down, that is, they all agreed on the fundamental meaning of the articles of the Creed, the sacraments, such as baptism, the Eucharist, confession, etc, and the meaning of these sacraments, the moral teachings, of the commandments, mortal sin, etc, the way of worship (the mass), etc. then these teachings of the apostles must have been clear and explicit.
The catechisms today present that apostolic Tradition. They are divided into the Creed, Sacraments, Commandments and Prayer, because that was the content and organization and form of the Gospel the apostles taught. In other words, if someone asked a Christian in Rome about Jesus and His teachings, this Christian would not start quoting the geneologies. He would teach the basic teachings of the Creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer.
 
Later on, the Holy Spirit inspired some men to write the NT scripture. Since this scripture is explicit in the historical facts, and since it is largely a narrative of events, as Luke says in the beginning of his Gospel, then it seems to be salvation history. Since everyone agrees that scripture states historical facts, (that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, etc, ) which they all can agree on, even atheists, it is obvious the primary purpose of scripture is to present salvation history and to learn about the person of Jesus. Since no one, who rejects apostolic tradition, can agree on the doctrine that scripture presents, we must conclude that scripture was not meant to teach doctrine by itself.

Thus, doctrine was spread by the teaching and preaching of the Church, which by definition is tradition. Since it comes from the apostles, it is called apostolic Tradition. Since the apostles learned it from God, it is also called Sacred Tradition. Because the basic teachings were clear, explicit, and understood by all who wanted to know them, Tradition was was the norm for learning the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Since scripture is not clear on any doctrine to the ordinary person, for there are always “apparent” contradictions, it is obvious that is was not meant to teach doctrine. Since it is in a historical format, and since all agree on the historical facts presented, it seems obvious that scripture was meant to teach salvation history. Thus, we have two distinct parts of the Gospel, as the Church teaches, apostolic Tradition, in which the explicit, clear, teachings of the Gospel were handed down, and scripture, in which salvation history was handed down. They are distinct, because one does not come from the other. Scripture does not come from Apostolic Tradition. It comes from the Holy Spirit and its content is different, and format is different from apostolic Tradition. Though they both have some things in common.
Apostolic Tradition is explicit and clear in basic doctrines.
Scripture is only implicit (hidden) regarding doctrines and explicit in salvation history.
Code:
In the process of teaching this Gospel, the leaders of the Church could later quote New Testament scripture to illuminate  doctrine and they could quote scripture as a witness to doctrine, because in the process of presenting salvation history, Scripture does contain **some parts** of **some doctrines**, expressed **implicitly ** (in a hidden form). The mistake most people make is that they think because the Church often quotes scripture in regards to basic doctrine, the doctrine comes from scripture.  This is false. The Church quotes scripture in regards to basic doctrine to help illuminate, support, and as a witness to the doctrine which it has always been teaching as part of apostolic Tradition.
Since this Gospel, handed down by tradition was learned, there was no reason to write it down. Just as parents teach their children until they grow up, but never write down these teachings. Why write down what they already know.
And of course, this Tradition is easily handed down without error, just as all children coming to school for the first time, who cannot read, thus learned all by tradition, all know the meaning of “go sit down in your desk”, they all know how understand a 6000 word vocabulary, and how to use those words, they all know those things on the ends of their arms are called “hands”, etc, etc. They all know this without error, from their parents, who in turned learned it by tradition from their parents without error, and so on.
The Church, as the family of God, hands down teachings the same way.
Thus, the Church does not need the Holy Spirit to prevent error in the transmission of Tradition. The Church needs the Holy Spirit because of sinfulness, man would reject and change the teachings of this Tradition. If it wasn’t for the Holy Spirit, the Church would soon accept divorce, contraception, etc, like the man-made Churches have done.
Did some early Christians believe major error? Of course, because some were not that interested in the truth, thus they never sought out the whole truth from the Church. Did the Church teach error? Never.
 
None accurately represent the Reformers model which would be a Spirit-led exegesis which involved Scripture interpreting Scripture, historical-grammatical-literary hermeneutic, and the community of faith.
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Fidelis:
So much for perpescuity of the Scripture for the average Christian! 🙂
These two posts reminded me of a joke.

And Jesus said unto the Theologians , “And whom do you say that I am?”

They replied, “You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood revealed.”

And Jesus replied, “What?”
😃
 
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Pax:
Michael,

I’ve worked up something on the question of infallibility but it is much too lengthy for a post. I’ll send it via email. It is not exhaustive, but it has some good things in it.
Hey Pax -

I KNOW you didn’t mean to exclude anyone from your great writings - would you please email me a copy as well?

Thanks-

Phil
 
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Pax:
Michael,

I have thought a little more about your requirement for signs and miracles from the Catholic Church leaders to prove their authenticity as coming from God.

If your requirement is correct then we must also believe that all Christian believers must also work great signs and wonders because scripture requires it in the same fashion that you believe scripture requires it from the appointed leadership.

Please refer to Mark 16:15-17 where it says, " And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Neither you or I have probably done such things, but we are believers. It is not necessary that everyone work signs in every age. Jesus even says that the Jews had to listen to the scribes and pharisees because they sat on Moses seat. The scribes and pharisees were not working signs and wonders. We only see this appearing at specific times in the OT with certain of the prophets and leaders. God’s annointings take different forms depending upon His plan and purposes.

If you do want miracles you can research Catholic miracles very easily. They are numerous and verifiable.
Of course you and I don’t demonstrate signs and wonders in this way. We are not sent with a “new” unverified message concerning the messiah as they were. We have the already verified message and we point back to what they did–but primarily what Christ did in His resurrection. In other words, I don’t have to have miracles because I don’t claim to speak infallibly for God.

You must understand how I see it. I see Charismatics all the time say that they have a message from the Lord, that they are God’s spokesmen. Am I just supposed to believe them? This is the protection the God set up in Deut 13; 18 and reiterated 2 Cor 12:12. No one can just come and claim that they are God’s spokesmen. They must show a sign, or I will think they need to go to a mental institution!

Michael
 
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michaelp:
Of course you and I don’t demonstrate signs and wonders in this way. We are not sent with a “new” unverified message concerning the messiah as they were. We have the already verified message and we point back to what they did–but primarily what Christ did in His resurrection. In other words, I don’t have to have miracles because I don’t claim to speak infallibly for God.

You must understand how I see it. I see Charismatics all the time say that they have a message from the Lord, that they are God’s spokesmen. Am I just supposed to believe them? This is the protection the God set up in Deut 13; 18 and reiterated 2 Cor 12:12. No one can just come and claim that they are God’s spokesmen. They must show a sign, or I will think they need to go to a mental institution!

Michael
Hi Michael! 👋

2000 years of unchanged teaching is a darn good sign! 👍

Do you believe that no one in the world today speaks authoritatively for God… fulfills Luke 10:16??

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
2000 years of unchanged teaching is a darn good sign! 👍
I am sorry, but I do not see in any way 2000 years of unchanged teaching. I find the essence of the truth throughout church history, but many things do and did change. All I have to do is to look at the churches change with regard to the atonement. For the first 1100 years virtually the entire church suscribed to a Ransom to Satan threory of the Atonement. It was not until 1100 that most people changed and said that the ransom was not paid to satan, but to God. This heretical (by todays standards) theory is found from Irenaeus to Augustine in explicit form.

Do you believe that no one in the world today speaks authoritatively for God… fulfills Luke 10:16??

This is fulfilled everytime that someone stands up for the truth of the Resurrection of Christ and His lordship. People speak authoritatively for God to the degree that they are teaching the truths expressed by God.

Michael

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Michael, we do however have plenty of Saints that God has sent that do those miracles.God Bless
I believe in miracles of benevolence that are done through prayer. The difference in authenticating miracles and miracles of benevolence is that authenticating miracles seem to have been done so that they could point to the message of the speaker or the authority of the person to speak for God. These were done at the will of the person through the power of God. After the miracle, the person’s words were believed.

Notice here:
Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the ninth *hour, *the hour of prayer. 2 And a man who had been lame from his mother’s womb was being carried along, whom they used to set down every day at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, in order to beg alms of those who were entering the temple.3 When he saw Peter and John about to go into the temple, he *began *asking to receive alms.4 But Peter, along with John, fixed his gaze on him and said, "Look at us!"5 And he *began *to give them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.6 But Peter said, "I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene – walk!"7 And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened.8 With a leap he stood upright and *began *to walk; and he entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God.9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God;10 and they were taking note of him as being the one who used to sit at the Beautiful Gate of the temple to *beg *alms, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

Then after the semon which proclaimed Christ as the Messiah (something new to the people and something that would have been hard to believe without a miracle) we are told that they were thrown in a Jewish jail. Notice what the Jewish leaders said:

Acts 4:15 But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they *began *to confer with one another, 16 saying, "What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy [this is what I mean by authenticating] miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.

You see, their miracle proved that they spoke for God. Does this gaurantee that people will believe it? No, but it does provide evidence so that it should be believed. Without it, there is no reason to believe. That is why Paul said that miracles were the signs of a true apostle or prophet (2 Cor 12:12).

Michael
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Whosoever does not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood has no LIFE in him.Hello, Michael:) How do you understand this scripture, since you can’t see the Eucharist as symbolic in nature,but, you don’t see it as salvific?God Bless
Eat and drink of Christ body and blood is sybolic for belief. When we take the bread and wine, we are sybolically making Christ a part of us. He becomes who we are. This only happens to the degree that we believe in Him. Belief is the primary theme of John, not the Lord’s supper. In fact, John does not even record the Lord’s supper. The only Gospel that does not. Therefore, the emphasis, even in this chapter, is belief.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

This is a parallel construct which shows coming to Christ = not hungering, and believing in Christ = not thirsting. It is in this context that He talks about eating His flesh and drining His blood. This is the context of the passage and therefore, it shows that Christ was referring to belief using a vivid illustration which shows the life and substance changing nature that true belief involves.

The reason why I said that I think the eucharist may be more than JUST symbolic is because of 1 Cor 11:30, not John 6. John six seems to have only a vivid illustation of belief in mind.

Michael
 
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