What is the tradition?

[javid]

Hi

As I learned, Church has three infallible sources: Pope, Bibe & Tradition. Not?

We know what Popes said and say, We got a certain book as the Holy bibe, But what is the tradition?

Is there any written document about what tradition says?

Is it accessible?

 

[Michael57]

Here’s a good place to start: LINK

 

[Abu]

Javid #1
But what is the tradition?
Is there any written document about what tradition says?
Is it accessible?

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).

The reality is that Tradition is the teachings of Jesus, His Apostles and His Church. (CCC #81,82). The other “tradition” is legitimate customs, theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional, over time. (CCC #83). Erroneous traditions are condemned.

The spiritual helps of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the seven sacraments instituted by Christ, with Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are the means which enabled the many canonised saints of heroic virtue to be further examples of the efficacy of His Church in leading to the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[DebChris]

Tradition is the teachings that the Apostles received directly from Jesus Christ. These teachings are protected by the Holy Spirit and handed on intact through the magisterium, the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. The magisterium is comprised of the pope and the bishops of Church. They are the successors of the Apostles.
Tradition is spelled with a capital T. This differs from traditions and customs which can change and have changed through out the ages and depending on where people live. What Christ taught has not changed since the time of the Apostles.

 

[dmar198]

Hi

As I learned, Church has three infallible sources: Pope, Bibe & Tradition. Not?

We know what Popes said and say, We got a certain book as the Holy bibe, But what is the tradition?

Is there any written document about what tradition says?

Is it accessible?

The Catechism says that the Church’s Tradition is the doctrinal principles of the Church as witnessed to by the Church Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, the Saints, and the Liturgy. (CCC 83) Some of those things are more accessible than others depending on how they have been published and what languages they have been translated into. A big part of understanding the Church’s Tradition comes from reading the writings of the Church Fathers, and their best writings have been translated into English so you can access them in several places. (One is www.newadvent.org/fathers. Start there if you want to read the Church Fathers and discover the Church’s Tradition.)

 

[TimothyH]

Hi

As I learned, Church has three infallible sources: Pope, Bibe & Tradition. Not?

We know what Popes said and say, We got a certain book as the Holy bibe, But what is the tradition?

Is there any written document about what tradition says?

Is it accessible?

No, not.

The three sources are Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. All three must agree.

The Magiserium is the teaching office of the Church. The Pope is not the Magisterium. The Pope is a big part of the Magisterium but it also includes the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and many other sources.

-Tim-

 

[Heart_Foam]

No, not.

The three sources are Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. All three must agree.

The Magisterium is the teaching office of the Church. The Pope is not the Magisterium. The Pope is a big part of the Magisterium but it also includes the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and many other sources.

But you haven’t answered the question. What is Catholic Tradition? No one has yet said “the content of Tradition is X”.

Is tradition accessible? What a wonderful question. It turns out that it isn’t. Could Rome could fill a tweet with real apostolic Tradition it has actually preserved? And it’s not like the Catholic church actually has the other miracles of Jesus, or the traditions Paul instituted in Corinth, or the things John didn’t feel like writing, and uses these as sources of doctrine. Oh no. (If they did I’d be impressed.) The Catholic church argues for one thing and concludes another. What Tradition really is, is a blank cheque to include post-NT extra-Biblical inventions like the treasury of merit (which was first proposed by a Dominican monk in the 13th century - no one is pretending that it comes from the apostles) which fundamentally changes the doctrine of justification. Apostolic Tradition is certainly not appealed to because Catholics actually have anything extra from the 12 Apostles. They don’t. (Or if you do, please see this as an opportunity to share.)

Really there are claimed to be two sources of divine revelation - Scripture and Tradition. Both are subject to the interpretation of the “infallible interpreter”, the magisterial teaching office of the RCC. So if Tradition was somehow accessible, the Catholic attitude toward Tradition would be the same as toward Scripture. And Catholics do not read Scripture to learn their faith. To do so would be to cease being a Catholic at heart. To be Catholic, Scripture says what the magisterium tells you it says, and Tradition is whatever the magisterium tells you is Tradition. Sola ecclesia.

 

[fhansen]

Hi

As I learned, Church has three infallible sources: Pope, Bibe & Tradition. Not?

We know what Popes said and say, We got a certain book as the Holy bibe, But what is the tradition?

Is there any written document about what tradition says?

Is it accessible?

Tradition tends to reveal itself more clearly when questions from non-Catholics come up regarding Catholic teachings and practices that aren’t necessarily clearly spelled out in the bible. So belief in the Real Presence, while not unsupported scripturally, is nonetheless a point of contention with some non-Catholics. But the Church has no qualms or doubts about it; she’s simply always held the same belief since the beginnings of the Christian faith. Same with infant baptism, purgatory, Mariology, etc. IOW she doesn’t need to rely on someone’s exegesis-their opinion-of scripture to know the faith-*she already knows it-*and was teaching it before one word of the NT was written.

 

[DebChris]

Tradition tends to reveal itself more clearly when questions from non-Catholics come up regarding Catholic teachings and practices that aren’t necessarily clearly spelled out in the bible. So belief in the Real Presence, while not unsupported scripturally, is nonetheless a point of contention with some non-Catholics. But the Church has no qualms or doubts about it; she’s simply always held the same belief since the beginnings of the Christian faith. Same with infant baptism, purgatory, Mariology, etc. IOW she doesn’t need to rely on someone’s exegesis-their opinion-of scripture to know the faith-*she already knows it-*and was teaching it before one word of the NT was written.

Exactly. These teachings, given to the Apostles and handed intact through the ages are protected by the Holy Spirit. They are entrusted to the magisterium, or teaching authority of the Church. When there have been questions about specific issues, the Church has met in councils, beginning with Jerusalem. The Council of Jerusalem, mentioned in the Book of Acts addressed the issues of circumcision and whether or not new converts were bound by the laws of the Old Covenant. It was the first council. The latest was Vatican II which dealt with how to more effectively bring the gospel into the modern world.
What the Church teaches does not change. Individually, and collectively, we continue to grow in our understanding of what Christ taught.

 

[TimothyH]

But you haven’t answered the question.

Javid asked four questions. I answered the first question.

As I learned, Church has three infallible sources: Pope, Bibe & Tradition. Not?

That is the question I answered. The answer is no, not.

Tradition is accessible. It is found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the doctors of the Church and encyclicals. Tradition is accessible through our doctrines and dogmas. It is found in a very special way in the the religious orders - Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans and Carmelites. It is found in our worship and in our prayer and how we live our lives.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Tradition is accessible.

It is found in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the doctors of the Church and encyclicals. It is found in the way the religious orders live. It is found in our worship and in our prayer and how we live our lives.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Tradition tends to reveal itself more clearly when questions from non-Catholics come up regarding Catholic teachings and practices that aren’t necessarily clearly spelled out in the bible. So belief in the Real Presence, while not unsupported scripturally, is nonetheless a point of contention with some non-Catholics. But the Church has no qualms or doubts about it; she’s simply always held the same belief since the beginnings of the Christian faith. Same with infant baptism, purgatory, Mariology, etc. IOW she doesn’t need to rely on someone’s exegesis-their opinion-of scripture to know the faith-*she already knows it-*and was teaching it before one word of the NT was written.

Infant baptism, purgatory, Mariology are all in the Bible. They are all over the Bible for someone who reads it as a Jew would have read it. These have a clear basis in Sacred Scripture when Scripture is read correctly.

-Tim-

 

[DebChris]

Infant baptism, purgatory, Mariology are all in the Bible. They are all over the Bible for someone who reads it as a Jew would have read it. These have a clear basis in Sacred Scripture when Scripture is read correctly.

-Tim-

The Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation says “that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s wise design, as so linked that one cannot stand the others, and all together, and each in its own way under the action of the Holy Spirit contribute to the effectively to the salvation of souls.”
I do own a copy of The Catholic Answer Bible which cites the related scriptural texts that support Catholic teaching. St. Paul calls the Church “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). It was the magisterium of Church which discerned which books belong in Bible and how they are interpreted in light of sacred Tradition.

 

[asd72]

But you haven’t answered the question. What is Catholic Tradition? No one has yet said “the content of Tradition is X”.

Is tradition accessible? What a wonderful question. It turns out that it isn’t. Could Rome could fill a tweet with real apostolic Tradition it has actually preserved? And it’s not like the Catholic church actually has the other miracles of Jesus, or the traditions Paul instituted in Corinth, or the things John didn’t feel like writing, and uses these as sources of doctrine. Oh no. (If they did I’d be impressed.) The Catholic church argues for one thing and concludes another. What Tradition really is, is a blank cheque to include post-NT extra-Biblical inventions like the treasury of merit (which was first proposed by a Dominican monk in the 13th century - no one is pretending that it comes from the apostles) which fundamentally changes the doctrine of justification. Apostolic Tradition is certainly not appealed to because Catholics actually have anything extra from the 12 Apostles. They don’t. (Or if you do, please see this as an opportunity to share.)

Really there are claimed to be two sources of divine revelation - Scripture and Tradition. Both are subject to the interpretation of the “infallible interpreter”, the magisterial teaching office of the RCC. So if Tradition was somehow accessible, the Catholic attitude toward Tradition would be the same as toward Scripture. And Catholics do not read Scripture to learn their faith. To do so would be to cease being a Catholic at heart. To be Catholic, Scripture says what the magisterium tells you it says, and Tradition is whatever the magisterium tells you is Tradition. Sola ecclesia.

Augustine

“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

 

[Abu]

Heart Foam #7
Catholics do not read Scripture to learn their faith. To do so would be to cease being a Catholic at heart.
To be Catholic, Scripture says what the magisterium tells you it says, and Tradition is whatever the magisterium tells you is Tradition. Sola ecclesia.

This poster should attend carefully to Sacred Scripture to learn about Jesus, His Church and Her Scriptures, as Jesus wrote nothing, and no one would know anything about Jesus and His teaching without His Church and the fact that She gave us the Bible.

The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar as the N.T. shows clearly.
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

The second error is in disregarding history.
Christ Himself proclaimed: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:18). “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15

 

[Michael57]

But you haven’t answered the question. What is Catholic Tradition? No one has yet said “the content of Tradition is X”.

Is tradition accessible? What a wonderful question. It turns out that it isn’t. Could Rome could fill a tweet with real apostolic Tradition it has actually preserved? And it’s not like the Catholic church actually has the other miracles of Jesus, or the traditions Paul instituted in Corinth, or the things John didn’t feel like writing, and uses these as sources of doctrine. Oh no. (If they did I’d be impressed.) The Catholic church argues for one thing and concludes another. What Tradition really is, is a blank cheque to include post-NT extra-Biblical inventions like the treasury of merit (which was first proposed by a Dominican monk in the 13th century - no one is pretending that it comes from the apostles) which fundamentally changes the doctrine of justification. Apostolic Tradition is certainly not appealed to because Catholics actually have anything extra from the 12 Apostles. They don’t. (Or if you do, please see this as an opportunity to share.)

Really there are claimed to be two sources of divine revelation - Scripture and Tradition. Both are subject to the interpretation of the “infallible interpreter”, the magisterial teaching office of the RCC. So if Tradition was somehow accessible, the Catholic attitude toward Tradition would be the same as toward Scripture. And Catholics do not read Scripture to learn their faith. To do so would be to cease being a Catholic at heart. To be Catholic, Scripture says what the magisterium tells you it says, and Tradition is whatever the magisterium tells you is Tradition. Sola ecclesia.

Apparently, you have some odd notion of Catholicism that I am not yet familiar with, did you gain this knowledge first hand, or did you simply hear about it somewhere?

 

[TimothyH]

Infant baptism, purgatory, Mariology are all in the Bible. They are all over the Bible for someone who reads it as a Jew would have read it. These have a clear basis in Sacred Scripture when Scripture is read correctly.

-Tim-
DebChris;11368589:

The Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation says “that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s wise design, as so linked that one cannot stand the others, and all together, and each in its own way under the action of the Holy Spirit contribute to the effectively to the salvation of souls.”
I do own a copy of The Catholic Answer Bible which cites the related scriptural texts that support Catholic teaching. St. Paul calls the Church “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). It was the magisterium of Church which discerned which books belong in Bible and how they are interpreted in light of sacred Tradition.

I don’t understand how the things you mention relate to the fact that purgatory, Mariology and infant baptism are all found in Scripture.

-Tim-

 

[javid]

No, not.

The three sources are Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. All three must agree.

The Magiserium is the teaching office of the Church. The Pope is not the Magisterium. The Pope is a big part of the Magisterium but it also includes the Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church and many other sources.

-Tim-

But a Apologist on this site has said:

The Magisterium consists of the pope speaking alone and also in concert with the bishops.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=25689

 

[Abu]

javid #17
The Magisterium consists of the pope speaking alone and also in concert with the bishops.

Correct.

From Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus), for infallibility to be exercised the Pope must teach
(a) ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter), that is as Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians,
(b) speaking with Peter’s apostolic authority to the whole Church,
(c) defining a doctrine of faith and morals.

So the Pope’s ‘ex cathedra’ definitions may be either of revealed dogma, to be believed with divine faith, or of other truths necessary for guarding and expounding revealed truth. Vatican Council II and the post-conciliar Magisterium have explicitly affirmed that both ecclesial and papal infallibility extend to the secondary doctrinal truths necessary for guarding and expounding revelation.

Thus, no dogma has to be affirmed, nor anyone anathematized, nor the word “define” or “definition” be used for an infallible papal teaching – only that the Pope is handing down a certain, decisive judgment that a point of doctrine on faith or morals is true and its contrary false.

 

[javid]

Thanks for answers.

Are only Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium infallible?

Does They contain ecumenical councils?