What is the true church?

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Odell,

Here again I find a contradiction in your post. First you said…
no body has been persuaded to violate their conscience John. is this how you feel do you feel we are forcing you or any of our members I dont feel that way.
You seem to be alluding to existence of soul-liberty within the Catholic Church (which is the ability to excercise religion according to our conscience).

Then you stated in the very next post…
Another thing is that the Church has athorirty how do we know this? because the bible says so.
Contrary to what you think, the Church does not have authority… only the Apostles had authority (12 of them). And contrary to what you might say, you don’t believe the Catholic Church allows soul-liberty… you apparently believe that people have liberty within the confines of Catholic Church authority. That is not freedom, it is communism.

You, Odell, are answerable to Jesus Christ alone for your faith… not the Catholic Church. Let me ask you this… if the time came that you felt your walk with Christ was being hindered by practicing Catholicism… would you leave the Catholic Church? Would you walk away from the teachings of the Catholic Church if staying in the Catholic Church meant straying from Christ?

What would the reaction of the Catholic Church be if you were to do that? I can tell you. I have written an article about it here.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
There you go again John…the what if game. What if I tell you you that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus with the Promise that not even the gates of hell will prevail to destroy his church. That kinda makes your what if mute. So go ahead John give it your best shot. We have Jesus’s promise. We have the truth. We have the way. We have the fullness of God’s promise. I will pray for you John. That much hate you seem to have for us is just keeping you blind.
 
Stephen,
there you go again…attacking the things you do not understand or that does not fit your view. No one here has said you were not Christian or that you are not following Christ as best you know. We just think you are wrong about more then a few things. But again all you have done here is attack our (Catholic) faith and to go as far as telling we are not even Christians. Well only God has that knowledge. Are you God? Do you know my heart?
John I pray to Jesus every day. It is the first thing I do when I wake up and the last words on my lips when I fall to sleep at the end of the day. I also take the time to listen for his words to speak to my heart.
This is a debate over what is the true church, my intention is not to disparage Catholicism or it’s adherants, but in order to make the point that my interpretation of the scripture and what the “true church” is accurate, it is necessary to refute the opposition.

Please don’t be offended, I am not attacking you or anyone else here, I am only strategically debating an opposing viewpoint.

I have not gone so far as to say that you are not Christians. I would not do that, I am not God and only God knows the hearts of men. But, if my evangelism offends you, that may be a sign that you are not a Christian (I don’t know, you examine that).

I am glad you pray, and that you realize that prayer is not just talking to God, but also listening. But in the end, many will approach Jesus and defend themselves by saying they did those things which were required…
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And Jesus will say…
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Do you REALLY know Jesus?

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Stephen,
There you go again John…the what if game.
Do you believe you have the same soul-liberty that Odell claims the Catholic Church allows?

Then why don’t you answer the “what if” questions.

Do you have enough courage to stand up to the Catholic Church if it violates your conscience?

Or are you intimidated by Canon 1371?

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Stephen,

Do you believe you have the same soul-liberty that Odell claims the Catholic Church allows?

Then why don’t you answer the “what if” questions.

Do you have enough courage to stand up to the Catholic Church if it violates your conscience?

Or are you intimidated by Canon 1371?

John
www.gideonsword.net
John, you are making an asumption here. I just don’t see it that way. I had the courage to follow Jesus. He has lead me to his Church. At great cost I might add. It has not been a easy road John. But it the one Jesus has choose for me. To deny following Jesus would be to deny him. I’m just not going to do that. Again as I pray for you, pray for me as well. Pray that I follow Jesus no matter where it may lead, and at all cost. And I pray the same for you.

God bless,
Stephen
 
A well informed, properly disposed conscience will NEVER disagree with the fullness of truth of the Catholic church.

Name ONE doctrine or dogma of the Catholic Church that you think a good, God-fearing Christian would ‘disagree’ with as a legitimate issue of ‘conscience’.

Disciplines, private revelations, devotions–all of these are ‘optional’. I’m talking real Scriptural/Traditional faith here. And I’m also talking of doctrine/ dogma that does not permit more than one ‘belief’ if you will. For example, no Catholic MUST believe in capital punishment, as there can be legitimate GOVERNMENT authority which permits it. So that gets knocked out as a ‘conscience issue.’
 
I have not gone so far as to say that you are not Christians. I would not do that, I am not God and only God knows the hearts of men. But, if my evangelism offends you, that may be a sign that you are not a Christian (I don’t know, you examine that).
Where did that come from??? So if we don’t believe what you have said we are non-Christians? Or if we find your interruption offensive/wrong that we are not Christians? I think not…sorry. And you have indeed called us non-Christian’s on this forum and in an earler post on this thread.
 
Odell,
Contrary to what you think, the Church does not have authority… only the Apostles had authority (12 of them). And contrary to what you might say, you don’t believe the Catholic Church allows soul-liberty… you apparently believe that people have liberty within the confines of Catholic Church authority. That is not freedom, it is communism.
contrary to what you may think the Church does have authority
(Eph 2:20) The Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles.
Did that Church die with the apostles John?

(Acts 1:20-26) let another take his OFFICE…Matthias takes Judas’ apostolic ministry.

usually when the someone is replaced the responsibility is taken up with someone else taking the office.

but you are sugesting otherwise. There is no logic to your argument.
You, Odell, are answerable to Jesus Christ alone for your faith… not the Catholic Church. Let me ask you this… if the time came that you felt your walk with Christ was being hindered by practicing Catholicism… would you leave the Catholic Church? Would you walk away from the teachings of the Catholic Church if staying in the Catholic Church meant straying from Christ?
ok agian your logic makes no since. First lets see, by the Catholic Church claiming authority you seem to think that it means we are answerble to the Chruch alone and not Jesus. But But you claim that the apostles had the authority that the Chruch claims to have. Are you sugesting that when the apostles where alive that they then where answerble to the Chruch (apostles) and Christ. But now when the apostles are long gone we are now only answerble to Jesus.

which is it John?
Do you have enough courage to stand up to the Catholic Church if it violates your conscience?
QUOTE]
Do you have enough courage to stand up against The True Chruch if it violates your conscience?
stupid statment.
 
Contrary to what you think, the Church does not have authority… only the Apostles had authority (12 of them).
Uhm…I think you missed my previous post demonstrating otherwise. In order to see the Church’s role after the lives of the Apostles one has to look outside the NT. As the NT does not capture the timeframe after the Apostles, for obvious reasons.
And contrary to what you might say, you don’t believe the Catholic Church allows soul-liberty… you apparently believe that people have liberty within the confines of Catholic Church authority. That is not freedom, it is communism.
Revealed truth is not relative. A Christian cannot claim that Jesus is not God and continue to call himself a Christian wouldn’t you agree? Can he use the line…“you are a whole bunch of communists cause you do not give me the freedom…”. You can see where I am getting at. Revealed truth cannot be compromised … Having said that, each individual must freely and in good conscience believe the truth eg Jesus is God, however if he/she fails to recognise the revealed truth, e.g. Jesus=God then they are NOT A CHRISTIAN. This is not debatable! So Chrisitians can only call themselves Christians if they are within the confine of believing Jesus to be God. Equally there are other revealed truths that are necessary to be able to claim yourself a Catholic Christian.

Cheers

Alex
 
The true church is this one:
As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.
That is the Catholic Church:)
newadvent.org/fathers/3001015.htm
 
Through the main body of your post you seemed to be mocking me by claiming that I have been the only one to recieve this special revelation about the Catholic Church and it’s false teaching, and that it was arrogant statement for me to claim that the Holy Spirit has given me alone this “special revelation” 2000 years later.
I said the statement was arrogant. You have yet to prove that the CC has false teachings. What is false are YOUR claims and YOUR teachings.
And again you err here and regrettably shows your statements are full of holes. . You talk about the Paulicians, Donatists, Waldensians, who came out against false CC teachings. A big, big correction here bud. You and the Paulicians, Donatists, Waldensians, etc., all FALSELY made claims against the true teachings of the CC. These sects were all found to be heretic. If you want to join them, then that’s your prerogative.
But, then you allude to the fact that I am not the only one speaking out against these false teachings…
You again are getting this all wrong. Time and again, you have been corrected but refuse to listen and get things backwards. Read again. Because YOU have received an indwelling YOU are calling the teachings of the CC false. I will state correctly again, YOU and many others, including those sects you mention, falsely speak out against the TRUE teachings of the CC. We are warned in the Bible to beware of false prophets and those preaching a different Gospel. That’s what you are doing and that’s what the Paulicians Donatists, Walednsians, have done; preach false gospels.
This truth was not revealed by man, but by God Himself…
Precisely, and the truth was revealed by God Himself to HIS church. Look at your posts again. YOU are the one that has made claims that because you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit GOD revealed the truths to you and so you ignore the 2000 years of teaching by the Holy Spirit to the Church that Jesus founded.
We can all know the truth about Jesus… God wants to reveal His Son to you. I’m not asking you to follow me, I am asking you to stop resisting the Holy Spirit, and when you do there will be no question as to what the “true church” is.
Here you are acting in Gods place. Can you read my heart? How do you know that I am resisting the Holy Spirit? Is it because I go against YOUR false teachings and claims, I am resisting the Holy Spirit? I have followed the Holy Spirit and He has directed me to HIS Church. Apparently you cannot say that for yourself. You are directing yourself to YOUR CHURCH.

The teachings of the CC are not false. They are the true teachings and have been backed up time and time again. Your teachings are false. Do some searching on this forum and you will see where the many false claims made by you and many others have been refuted countless times.
 
The Garg,

my answers will be in red :

Just because someone decided they didn’t believe the way the Catholic church taught, and left to start their own denomination doesn’t prove at all that the CC is a continuation of Apostolic teaching are you kidding me? anyone who is not FIRST, as in the one Christ started, is not “the True Church”, and there contradicts Christ ] and is the “true church”. Baptists could also say the same thing and just how on earth could they even try ? they were created out of an argument of someone else!!], where do you think the Pentecostals came from? not the catholic church. Does that mean Baptists are the true church… of course not, it only means that someone opposed thier teaching. You need to be more specific as to why they left the Catholic Church if you want to make a point.

what came after the first is irrelevent

You might need to re-read your history books.[no need to reread anything, as the previsious line states, if jesus ddint start your Chrurch, then your not the True Church, and last time i checked, John Smythe is not Christ] John Smythe--------------deleted the hstory of the baptist church since it was irrelevent and i needed room 🙂 --------England.

what came after the first is irrelevent

I really don’t have any desire for the things of this world; ie. relics, social status, etc… then thow your bible away, becuase without history, tradtion, and physical reminders of where we come from, you cannot prove it is true, it then becomes just another book from barnes and noble. what will you tell people, it just fell out of the sky?] I agree that to hold the skull of the Apostle Peter would be a tangible link to history, and a neat thing to do, it has no spiritual mystical power, and truthfully is nothing but a testimony to the corruptibility of Peter’s flesh, or a testament to early christian history, i know your afraid of that word history, but it is part of big picture, and without it you lose crediblity. ie mormons - claimed a war of two million that not one shred of evidence has been found for.] as well as our own. I have the Lord Jesus Christ living in me, [no you don’t, or else you woud follow all His ways, and accept the Fullness of Truth that He gave to us, your denial of the eucharist is proof that you are commited to YOUR agenda ] occupying and renewing my mind daily… how can the Pope, his altar, or the skulls of dead men compare with that?

Cause that Pope, on his alter, contianing the skulls of his predecessors can bring us to a place where Heaven and Earth unite, the Mass, and we can recieve the Bread of Life, aka Jesus, who then becomses part of our essence… at your church you can sing a song or two, songs with no meaning, and listen to some guy talk on only the parts of the bible he deems necassary…

By the way, the CC gave the world a corrupted version of the Bible in the 4th century[nice story, i know inventing things works on most of the sheep you herd, but not on me, i have studied the history and thire is no credible source to back this up ] tainted with Alexandrian Stoic philosophy. My bible is a translation of the Byzantine text which was around well before the Latin Vulgate (see post 79 for references)[this post is nothing but your personal interpretation and opionon, so is therefore irelevent].

your bible is missing books, and has a lot of stuff scribbled * out that martin luthar must have forgotten to scribble out. i would like you to try something, get a COMPLETE bible, a RSV-CE or a NAB , and read these books IN the order listed, and you will read the story of salvation history for the first time as if it were a regualar book] … from start to finish … *

Gen 1-50
Exodus
number
joshua
judges
1 samuel
2 samuel
1kings 1-22
2kings
Ezra
nehemiah
1 macabees
luke
acts

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Tantum ergo,
A well informed, properly disposed conscience will NEVER disagree with the fullness of truth of the Catholic church.
So are you opting out of the “what if” question? If you are, could it be because you have elevated the traditions of the Catholic Church to a higher level than Jesus Christ Himself?
Name ONE doctrine or dogma of the Catholic Church that you think a good, God-fearing Christian would ‘disagree’ with as a legitimate issue of ‘conscience’.
Moral issues: Alcohol consumption, endorsement of immodest dress and rock and roll concerts (labor day picnics); conformity to the world.

Doctrinal issues: Celibacy of Priests (mockery of the sanctity of marriage and what it illustrates), Eucharist (misrepresentation of Christs body), Marianism, etc. (the other issues being discussed on these forums…

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
That is the Catholic Church opinion… and opinions have no place in elucidation of scripture.
Can someone please explain to me by what authority bibleapologist speaks on scripture? I may have missed it as I skimmed the posts, but I don’t see the post in which he/she establishes their authority to speak on matters of faith.
 
Moral issues: Alcohol consumption
Do you find Jesus Christ morally corrupt for turning water into wine?

In 1 Tim. 5:23, is St. Paul morally corrupt for telling Timothy to drink not just water, but a little wine for the sake of his stomach and frequent ailments?

Was the Psalmist morally corrupt when he wrote with Divine Inspiration in Psalm 104:15 “wine gladdens the heart of a man”?
Doctrinal issues: Celibacy of Priests (mockery of the sanctity of marriage and what it illustrates)
Do you find Jesus’ and St. Paul’s celibacy to be a mockery of the sanctity of marriage and what it illustrates?

Was Jesus morally corrupt when in Matt. 19:11-12, He says that celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it?

Was Jesus morally corrupt when in Matt. 19:29 He says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life and praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom?

Was St. Paul morally corrupt in 1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 when he recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom by stating “who refrains from marriage will do better"?
 
Odell,
contrary to what you may think the Church does have authority
(Eph 2:20) The Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles.
Did that Church die with the apostles John?
Of course not, Odell. If the church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles, how does the Catholic Church justify re-laying again that same foundation through the Papal office, Odell?
ok agian your logic makes no since. First lets see, by the Catholic Church claiming authority you seem to think that it means we are answerble to the Chruch alone and not Jesus.
Again, you have failed to answer the question I asked. By your act of side-stepping my question, I am getting the idea that you are afraid to answer that question on the grounds that you might be found disloyal to the Catholic Church… even if it means remaining loyal to Christ.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Alexaustralia,
Revealed truth is not relative. A Christian cannot claim that Jesus is not God and continue to call himself a Christian wouldn’t you agree? Can he use the line…“you are a whole bunch of communists cause you do not give me the freedom…”. You can see where I am getting at. Revealed truth cannot be compromised … Having said that, each individual must freely and in good conscience believe the truth eg Jesus is God, however if he/she fails to recognise the revealed truth, e.g. Jesus=God then they are NOT A CHRISTIAN. This is not debatable! So Chrisitians can only call themselves Christians if they are within the confine of believing Jesus to be God. Equally there are other revealed truths that are necessary to be able to claim yourself a Catholic Christian.
I agree, truth comes by revelation, not by tradition. So, Alex, are you saying that if the Father revealed a truth to you that contradicted the Catholic Church’s teaching… would you be able to act according to your conscience and deny your affiliation with the CC?

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Moral issues: conformity to the world
Can you please elaborate on this idea that conformity to the world is a teaching of the Catholic Church using concrete examples from the Catechism?
Moral issues: endorsement of immodest dress
Can you please elaborate on this idea that the Catholic Church endorses immodest dress using concrete examples from the Catechism?
Moral issues: rock and roll concerts (labor day picnics)
Can you please elaborate on this idea that the Catholic Church endorses rock and roll concerts and labor day picnics using concrete examples from the Catechism?
 
Toby Lou,
You and the Paulicians, Donatists, Waldensians, etc., all FALSELY made claims against the true teachings of the CC. These sects were all found to be heretic.
That statement is as per “tobylou”, and influenced by your point of view as loyal to the Catholic Church.
That’s what you are doing and that’s what the Paulicians Donatists, Walednsians, have done; preach false gospels.
Again, a biased statement that carries no weight whatsoever for lack of substantiation.
Do some searching on this forum and you will see where the many false claims made by you and many others have been refuted countless times.
Why won’t you substantiate your claims? General statements don’t hold very much weight. If you are going to make a claim like my doctrinal stance has been refuted; be specific… which doctrines do I hold that have been refuted, and which post irrefutably deny my claims?

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
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