What is the True Face of Islam?

[chimo]

There’s no difference in the 21st century Christianity or the first three. I would venture to say the same is in regard to Islam. Growth equates to dissent and in both religions apparently which is a fact of life few would disagree with. So the first century Christians were not just as violent and those actually following Christ, today, last year, last century or any other would be the same.

I don’t see where suggesting some didn’t or are not following the true teaching of Christ today or yesterday is relevant to those following the true teaching of Christ be it laity or not.

No religious freedom and no freedom of speech doesn’t equate to silence, no where including the Bible. Not in first century Rome, not with Islam and not in America today.

There is a big difference between Christians today than the ones that appeared in the first century. The Christians back then were willing more to witness for their faith. I do not find this in the same vein in Christians today. There are very few Christians who are willing to witness for the Lord in comparison to those of the first century. As Christians (I am talking about the whole here) we are not receiving the balance of witnessing that the Lord wants from us in order to change this world of ours. Since this majority of Christians who have not given witness for the Lord (especially in the West) this has created a lack of God’s Graces and because of this is actually creating the mess we see in the West and ultimately effecting parts of the world. The real essence of Christianity is love in action and here the majority of Christians in the West seem to be lacking in this type of service. It is to my observations that God has allowed Islam to exist for a purpose and in the day which many of His Christians will not actively pursue to know of His love so as to share it, God will call in the Moslem people to fill in those shoes where many Christians would not enter. I sense God will convert the people of Islam when many Christians will not want to fill these shoes with His love.

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is a big difference between Christians today than the ones that appeared in the first century.

Saints are here today as yesterday and the first century. And the West comment is insulting, the East has no “par-excellence” in dealing with Islam, where Russia? So further comment to the post would have further deviated from “ISLAM” the topic of the thread.

BTW what is the EAST ORTHODOX teaching on Islam? We will use that instead of the Catholic paradigm or are they the same in relation to Christ? Where is this specific teaching so we can compare?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The real essence of Christianity is love in action and here the majority of Christians in the West seem to be lacking in this type of service. It is to my observations that God has allowed Islam to exist for a purpose and in the day which many of His Christians will not actively pursue to know of His love so as to share it, God will call in the Moslem people to fill in those shoes where many Christians would not enter. I sense God will convert the people of Islam when many Christians will not want to fill these shoes with His love.

Where did Islam begin and is this where God called the Muslims to fill in for the Christians?

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FArab%25E2%2580%2593Byzantine_wars&ei=Y_THU6XtOsbD8AGbqYGQDw&usg=AFQjCNECShL__3TmkB7WvRG5S8O6b9-Mcw

So let me get this straight, God raised up Mohammed to make up for the lacking Christianity and specifically in this area? I find this line of reasoning remarkably telling and not well thought out.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Let me just throw this out here. My understanding of Islam doesn’t disrespect the West or Eastern Church, it doesn’t disrespect Protestants or Russia, the US or Europe either. Further in doing so this disrespects Islam and really the main point which all of us agree on. The secular deviation in the World is not in Gods will. I disagree obviously on other points, namely the “violence” and intolerance. Now here the East and West have dropped the ball and in the same areas mentioned.

 

[chimo]

Saints are here today as yesterday and the first century. And the West comment is insulting, the East has no “par-excellence” in dealing with Islam, where Russia? So further comment to the post would have further deviated from “ISLAM” the topic of the thread.

BTW what is the EAST ORTHODOX teaching on Islam? We will use that instead of the Catholic paradigm or are they the same in relation to Christ? Where is this specific teaching so we can compare?

Where did I ever insult the West? In no way did I do this. When I speak of the West I am referring to the governments of the West which tend to be more anti-Christian when dealing with Christians. The problems in the West seem to be more internal than they are external. I would be more concerned with how the governments of the West are undermining Christianity than to what Islam is doing. I do not think these radicals in Islam are giving us any true picture of Islam at all. These radicals are just using Islam as a pretext for their own agenda. The Ecumenical Patriarch has said “war in the name of religion is war against religion.”

 

[chimo]

Where did Islam begin and is this where God called the Muslims to fill in for the Christians?

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FArab%25E2%2580%2593Byzantine_wars&ei=Y_THU6XtOsbD8AGbqYGQDw&usg=AFQjCNECShL__3TmkB7WvRG5S8O6b9-Mcw

So let me get this straight, God raised up Mohammed to make up for the lacking Christianity and specifically in this area? I find this line of reasoning remarkably telling and not well thought out.

Not all Moslems are as violent as you think they are. Why would God permit them to exist alongside us if not to convert them later on? If you will like to know how this is possible I will give you one source to think upon. In the Diary of St. Maria Faustina which is an approved apparition of the Lord Jesus there is a mention of a sign which Jesus plans for the whole world to see. It seems to me when things will get very bad the Lord Jesus Himself will help His Church for a sign that we will all see. Well if this sign is for everyone I assume it is for the Moslems as well.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where did I ever insult the West? In no way did I do this.

Your word is good with me.

When I speak of the West I am referring to the governments of the West which tend to be more anti-Christian when dealing with Christians.

So we are talking any government in truth, and pointing in particular to all the West?

The problems in the West seem to be more internal than they are external.

We would have to determine specifically which issues to further understand and conclude internal or external. For example if we are to agree God isn’t having all the secular insanity, then we can further see all of Islam regardless of who. From here is degrees of violence and intolerance.

I would be more concerned with how the governments of the West are undermining Christianity than to what Islam is doing.

Amen, and Freedom of religion and speech is off the table in my book. Further there’s a long list which must be dealt with.

I do not think these radicals in Islam are giving us any true picture of Islam at all. These radicals are just using Islam as a pretext for their own agenda.

We were not speaking specifically of radicals. We are speaking of Gods people, those of these books called Gods Word.

The Ecumenical Patriarch has said “war in the name of religion is war against religion.”

He may indeed be a Saint. There is no killing in Gods name. And there also is no rule of silence in speaking out against it in Gods Kingdom.

 

[spina1953]

When it comes to Islam it seems that while Muslims can preach in order to convert to their beliefs, Christians in any Muslims lands are not allowed to preach God’s Word under pain of death. Seems to me to be a one way street with them on that score. Also they do not believe that the Bible especially the NT is true and has been corrupted and are filled with lies. I wonder just how many Muslims have even read the Bible or the NT? If they had they would see that Jesus is what He said He is and that the Apostles died for what they believed. Neither Jesus or the Apostles or the early converts to Christianity went off killing in the name of God, but were willing to die for their faith without trying to take others with them by suicide and terrorism.

 

[onenow1]

Until someday arrives we are responsible for our own time frame and everyone in it. Sharia Law and Jihad. Its conversion by the sword and despicable. Tolerance is absent. The demographics are statistically clear be it they may be debated to various degrees population to population.

The violence of Islam creates silence and fear and a fad type conversion of the delusional as we with the nuts running to join Isis and in particular from Europe and America.

Pride in the form of terrorism rears its ugly head again, shades of the original sin of Adam. I think, a little worse actually, by using God’s name in vane for their misguided cause.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[GaryTaylor]

When it comes to Islam it seems that while Muslims can preach in order to convert to their beliefs, Christians in any Muslims lands are not allowed to preach God’s Word under pain of death. Seems to me to be a one way street with them on that score. Also they do not believe that the Bible especially the NT is true and has been corrupted and are filled with lies.

They convert by the sword and jihad and have done so historically, in Gods name they kill. And thats “Islam” the Islam of Mohammed? Its not new, and the Bible always been banned as documented by St Thomas. To help insure the ability never exists to know the truth!!!

 

[spina1953]

They convert by the sword and jihad and have done so historically, in Gods name they kill. And thats “Islam” the Islam of Mohammed? Its not new, and the Bible always been banned as documented by St Thomas. To help insure the ability never exists to know the truth!!!

Hi Gary Taylor: I agree with you! Islam has always been a religion of violence and it is either convert or be killed by the sword. The Bible as you have said is always banned in Muslim countries because it holds the truth and by banning the Bible they can keep people from knowing the truth. For me I can never accept a religion or any religion that claims that it is ok to kill in the name of God or to kill as a religious law from God in order to convert one to that religion.

For me God is a God of Love and of Life, one either chooses life or death and God want us to choose life. Islam teaches something far different; it teaches hatred etc. All one has to do is read the papers or see the TV news to see that Muslims kill each other over their own beliefs, sunnis and shiates kills each other over their own idea of what Islam is, which to me show just how violent they are from their own understanding of the Koran.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Not all Moslems are as violent as you think they are. Why would God permit them to exist alongside us if not to convert them later on? If you will like to know how this is possible I will give you one source to think upon. In the Diary of St. Maria Faustina which is an approved apparition of the Lord Jesus there is a mention of a sign which Jesus plans for the whole world to see. It seems to me when things will get very bad the Lord Jesus Himself will help His Church for a sign that we will all see. Well if this sign is for everyone I assume it is for the Moslems as well.

If it is for everyone than of course it is for Moslems, everyone would be quite simply everyone.

Everyone would be those of any kind of belief in something “greater” than us and those that believe that we are the “top of the heap”, so to speak, and anyone else that for any reason might not fit into these two designations.

As far as “Why would God permit them to exist alongside us if not to convert them later on?”

Couple of things, for one we either have free will or not and for another, just who did Jesus tell us that the “ruler of this world is”?

As far as “convert them later on”, who knows just what may happen, could be that the domination of the world by islam, which is the goal of islam, will come about.

Concerning “there is a mention of a sign which Jesus plans for the whole world to see”, could be this “surprise” will definitely be a “surprise for all”

 

[manualman]

Why assume that Islam has one “true face”? It seems to me that this implies that Islam is a true revelation from God. Do you believe that?

If you don’t believe that (and it looks as if you don’t), then it doesn’t make sense to speak of Islam having a “true face.” Islam is simply a set of cultural traditions.

It is indeed important to acknowledge the role of violent Jihad in Islamic tradition and that groups like al-Qaeda are genuinely inspired by elements of the Islamic tradition.

You’ve made this argument before and it took me completely by surprise last time. Thanks for the excellent food for thought. To an extent, I agree. We here at CAF believe Islam is NOT a divinely revealed faith. As such, it is incorrect to attempt to identify the “true Islam” because that’s an oxymoron. Why on earth would Christians label nominal muslims as “false muslims” for being guilty of trying to mitigate some of the uglier aspects of Islamic teaching. Excellent argument.

But it misses a major point of the OP article. Islam has never, anywhere, shown signs of being open to revisions to the Koran. And the Koran and Hadith establish a long and consistent tradition of how they are to be interpreted. The OP article is warning of a disturbing tendency in modern culture to assume that religion plays no role in the character or morality of a people. Thus, it is mere prejudice to assert that a religion that holds up a warlord polygamist murderer as the perfect example of a man submitted to the will of God might be a dangerous religion. Regardless of whether ‘moderate muslims’ or the Taliban prevail, Islam itself will always contain significant forces encouraging violence for as long as it includes the Koran and veneration of Muhammed. Tell me you seriously think those things are open to change.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hi Gary Taylor: I agree with you! Islam has always been a religion of violence and it is either convert or be killed by the sword. The Bible as you have said is always banned in Muslim countries because it holds the truth and by banning the Bible they can keep people from knowing the truth. For me I can never accept a religion or any religion that claims that it is ok to kill in the name of God or to kill as a religious law from God in order to convert one to that religion.

For me God is a God of Love and of Life, one either chooses life or death and God want us to choose life. Islam teaches something far different; it teaches hatred etc. All one has to do is read the papers or see the TV news to see that Muslims kill each other over their own beliefs, sunnis and shiates kills each other over their own idea of what Islam is, which to me show just how violent they are from their own understanding of the Koran.

I have said many times that I believe, not know but believe, that it was a supernatural being that came to Muhammed but that it was neither Gabriel nor God.

You wrote, “For me God is a God of Love and of Life, one either chooses life or death and God want us to choose life.”

God Is a Being of Love Who created life and it is not life but Love that God wants us to choose.

God-Incarnate chose God’s Will over His own life in accepting the cross and Jesus is reported to have said, “Come follow Me”.

God has had God’s Plan since before creation and God’s Will will come to Fruition in the unfolding of God’s Plan.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You’ve made this argument before and it took me completely by surprise last time. Thanks for the excellent food for thought. To an extent, I agree. We here at CAF believe Islam is NOT a divinely revealed faith. As such, it is incorrect to attempt to identify the “true Islam” because that’s an oxymoron. Why on earth would Christians label nominal muslims as “false muslims” for being guilty of trying to mitigate some of the uglier aspects of Islamic teaching. Excellent argument.

But it misses a major point of the OP article. Islam has never, anywhere, shown signs of being open to revisions to the Koran. And the Koran and Hadith establish a long and consistent tradition of how they are to be interpreted. The OP article is warning of a disturbing tendency in modern culture to assume that religion plays no role in the character or morality of a people. Thus, it is mere prejudice to assert that a religion that holds up a warlord polygamist murderer as the perfect example of a man submitted to the will of God might be a dangerous religion. Regardless of whether ‘moderate muslims’ or the Taliban prevail, Islam itself will always contain significant forces encouraging violence for as long as it includes the Koran and veneration of Muhammed. Tell me you seriously think those things are open to change.

You wrote, “Islam itself will always contain significant forces encouraging violence for as long as it includes the Koran and veneration of Muhammed”

Ever notice, that at times it appears, that many are so wrapped up in dealing with the “significant forces encouraging violence” that many don’t even seem to notice that the “so-called moderates” are using the ballot boxes and other measures such as free speech and freedom of religion to put in measures that may ultimately do away with the measures that they are using.

Might sound paradoxical to say that one uses freedom of speech to do away with freedom of speech and uses freedom of religion to do away with freedom of religion but that is just how it works sometimes.

There are some “Christians” who seem to think that freedom of religion is the freedom to be Christian and to impose Christianity on others, things like this may just “boomerang” before their very eyes.

The way that I look at “freedom of religion” is that anyone can believe or not believe whatever they want but no one can force their beliefs, or anything else for that matter, on anyone else.

As far as I am concerned, if anyone is denied “freedom of religion” than no one has “freedom of religion”.

 

[spina1953]

I have said many times that I believe, not know but believe, that it was a supernatural being that came to Muhammed but that it was neither Gabriel nor God.

You wrote, “For me God is a God of Love and of Life, one either chooses life or death and God want us to choose life.”

God Is a Being of Love Who created life and it is not life but Love that God wants us to choose.

God-Incarnate chose God’s Will over His own life in accepting the cross and Jesus is reported to have said, “Come follow Me”.

God has had God’s Plan since before creation and God’s Will will come to Fruition in the unfolding of God’s Plan.

Hi Tom: it is by personal belief that God is Love and God is Life since God exists that means that God lives. Without love there is no life and without life there is no Love. I do agree that God has a plan and that plan existed before creation and it will come to fruit as God’s will, will be done no matter what.

 

[spina1953]

Hi Manualman: I agree with you and those at CAF that Islam is not a divinely revealed faith. As a matter of fact after reading a great many histories about Muhammad and the rise of Islam, there is nothing that stands out as a divinely revealed faith. It seems to me from all that I have been able to read on the subject that it is a belief system based on Nestorianism, Sabellianism, Manichranism and also Arianism, as well as Jewish religious beliefs. Muhammad it seems to have learned these things from his travels as a merchant, but not from any catholic sources so far as I have been able to find. The Koran is filled with distortions and untruths. The Koran teaches violence in the name of God to those who are not Muslims but they fight and kill each other; Sunnies and Shaites , and history shows that they tried to convert by the sword.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Didn’t Jesus say something somewhere about someone being the “father of all lies”?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Here is an image of that face. patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2014/07/syriac-catholic-diocese-in-mosul-burns-as-conversion-deadline-passes/

Linus2nd