What is the use of good works if Jesus Died for us?

[teachccd]

But back to the point. Faith is a gift from God; it takes no effort on the part of the person. It is completely an act of God. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.” So we can do nothing to get faith; it is all from God. In order to have faith, there is no action on our part involved.

Yes we do want to do good works and a true faith will produce those, but they are not necessary to get to heaven. Only what Jesus has done can accomplish that.

What about James 2:17 and James 2:26?? Can you comment on just those passages without skipping around? What exactly is James saying in those passages?? James does not agree that “In order to have faith, there is no action on our part involved”. Was James a Catholic who was dissenting from Protestantism? This is not an attack now so don’t go there. This is a legitimate question…

 

[angie08]

It would be hard to clump over 33000 different denominations all together. My bad. It isn’t belonging to a certain Church that saves someone. Well, o.k. except maybe if it is the Church that Christ Himself founded. You state that interpreting the Bible is a problem but you skip the solution. How do we know that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?? Because it says so??? So does the Koran and the Book of Mormon. Without an inspired Church to interpret Scripture, how do we ever know what it says?? Why are there so many denominations within Christianity all claiming Bible only inspiration. Do we have a confused Holy Spirit or a confused bunch of people?? How do you know that 27 books belong in the New Testament?? The Old Testament never said how many books belong in the New Testament. Who determined that out of all of the accalimed apostolic writings only 27 were to be considered inspired??

I am not attacking anyone. If my observations seem like attacks then perhaps there are many unanswered questions that I cannot get from any non- Catholic Christian…

I couldn’t show you any proof that we know the bible is the inspired word of God. I have struggled with that doubt myself. But when it comes down to it, I know in my heart that the bible is true.

You said belonging to the church that Christ founded will save us. And I completely agree with that. Christ founded a church based on what He did and on His teachings. All who believe in Him and His teachings belong to the church that He founded. However, the Catholic church does not do this. It distorts the word of God and has many false teachings. So belonging to the Catholic church will not save you; in fact, it will condemn you if you believe everything that church teaches. I am not saying that all Catholic people are going to hell. There are many people in the Catholic church who do not believe the official Catholic teachings. There are many who do not even know what the official beliefs are. All I was trying to say was that those who believe in Jesus Christ as the one true God will be saved; what church they belong to has no influence over their salvation.

 

[jmcdzzz]

I’m often struck by people who read John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life*, and then gloss over John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him*.

That’s probably because the two most popular Protestant versions of the New Testamant, the KJV and the NIV, mistranslate it. The KJV reads,“and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” The NIV reads, “but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

However, the most accurate Protestant versions, the RSV, NASB and ESV all get it right.

 

[po18guy]

We do not need good works to get to heaven.

Did you miss this? Or did you just twist it to fit your lifestyle?

Revelation 20:11-13 (New International Version)
The Dead Are Judged
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Not a single word about “what they believed” or “what was in their hearts” Nothing! Just works! So it turns out that the only “book” that matters is the book of life! Oh, they’re gonna need some tylenol!

 

[NotWorthy]

That’s probably because the two most popular Protestant versions of the New Testamant, the KJV and the NIV, mistranslate it. The KJV reads,“and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” The NIV reads, “but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

However, the most accurate Protestant versions, the RSV, NASB and ESV all get it right.

Wow, I did NOT know that!

 

[RWMorris]

… Faith is a gift from God …

Absolutely True, faith is a gift from God.

… it takes no effort on the part of the person…

Absolutely False, and not scriptural.

Sorry Angie, but too many people mis-define what is involved when God offers us his gifts. While they are ours to freely accept, they are never without effort and commitment on his or our part.

 

[angie08]

Did you miss this? Or did you just twist it to fit your lifestyle?

Not a single word about “what they believed” or “what was in their hearts” Nothing! Just works! So it turns out that the only “book” that matters is the book of life! Oh, they’re gonna need some tylenol!

As has been pointed out, you can make the bible mean anything if you take certain passages out of context. The bible is very clear that if we believe that Jesus died for our sins, we are declared righteous before God. Therefore, if we have faith, God does not look at our sins, but insteads looks at Jesus’ life and how He lived it perfectly for us. If someone does not believe this, then they are judged by the law. And since they did not keep the law perfectly, they are sentenced to eternal death in hell. That might be what is meant in that passage you pointed out. Believers’ lives are seen in light of Jesus’ life. So we are judged by Jesus’ life if we believe that He took the punishment of sin for us.

And just because good works are not needed to get into heaven, that doesn’t undermine their importance. People will know if we are true Christians by our love. Our good works bear witness to God and they may cause others to come to belief in God. And if we truly love God, we will want to do what He says out of appreciation for everything He has done for us. I am not condoning a sinful lifestyle. I am saying that because our salvation is from God and not ourselves, we do not have to worry about whether we will go to heaven or not. If getting to heaven depended on our good works, we would always be wondering if we have done enough and doubting that we would actually go to heaven. But since our salvation only depends on God, we can be at peace because God will not break His promise to us, so we can be assured that we will go to heaven.

 

[po18guy]

Our God-given faith enables us to believe in the Gospel and act in accordance with God’s will. By doing so–as well as by partaking in the sacraments–we unite our own actions to those of Christ, and thus come to share in his divine life.

Hence, our own good works do not undermine or contradict Christ’s salvific work–they are continuations of it.

I love this!

 

[po18guy]

As has been pointed out, you can make the bible mean anything if you take certain passages out of context. The bible is very clear that if we believe that Jesus died for our sins, we are declared righteous before God.

How do you take final judgment “out of context”? You will be judged by what you have done. Heaven. Hell. Forever. Period.

Therefore, if we have faith, God does not look at our sins, but insteads looks at Jesus’ life and how He lived it perfectly for us.

I’m the Green River Killer. I know I killed 100 women, but just look at how perfect Jesus’ life was! He paid the price, didn’t he? Yes, he did! And I believe! I haven’t been baptized, I don’t go to church or read the bible. I would kill again and am trying to figure out how to escape so I can keep killing, but I believe! I’m saved. I am GUARANTEED to go to heaven!

Illustrating the absurd by being absurd.

 

[teachccd]

I couldn’t show you any proof that we know the bible is the inspired word of God. I have struggled with that doubt myself. But when it comes down to it, I know in my heart that the bible is true.

You said belonging to the church that Christ founded will save us. And I completely agree with that. Christ founded a church based on what He did and on His teachings. All who believe in Him and His teachings belong to the church that He founded. However, the Catholic church does not do this. It distorts the word of God and has many false teachings. So belonging to the Catholic church will not save you; in fact, it will condemn you if you believe everything that church teaches. I am not saying that all Catholic people are going to hell. There are many people in the Catholic church who do not believe the official Catholic teachings. There are many who do not even know what the official beliefs are. All I was trying to say was that those who believe in Jesus Christ as the one true God will be saved; what church they belong to has no influence over their salvation.

Under what authority can you even begin to entertain that thought when you have no idea why you believe that the Word of God is inspired? * See bold above* You seem to be very misguided and talk out of biased ignorance of the Catholic Church and her teachings. I will pray for you. Anyone who is happy with their Bible and has no proof that our Bible is the inspired Word of God needs prayers and I will pray for you. You are lost and you are here to cry out that message.

Your experience could be false being that you present unsubstantiated statements and you make your proofs from a bible that you struggle with in understanding its inspiration. Don’t make a fool of yourself. Study first then speak…Peace…teachccd

 

[GJx86]

I am saying that because our salvation is from God and not ourselves, we do not have to worry about whether we will go to heaven or not. If getting to heaven depended on our good works, we would always be wondering if we have done enough and doubting that we would actually go to heaven. But since our salvation only depends on God, we can be at peace because God will not break His promise to us, so we can be assured that we will go to heaven.

Three sets of questions:

Why are the statements that salvation is from God and that good works (help to) get us to heaven mutually exclusive? Doesn’t Ephesians 2 say that good works themselves are gifts of God?

Why do I have to worry about doing “enough good works” to get into heaven? It seems to me that if I’m in good standing with God, then God can make me holy on His own schedule, and I should worry about staying in that good standing and cooperating with God’s plan. I don’t need to think about how many works I “need,” because I know no count of works will ever be enough for me to deserve heaven. I just let God make me actually righteous so that when I’m judged, He can say, “GJx86, you are righteous; enter into heaven.” What’s wrong with this?

If God will never un-save the saved, then what is the message of the parable in Matthew 18:23-35?

 

[Teflon93]

What did Jesus say?

Matthew 25:

1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17: And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18: But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19: After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,** Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. **
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, **Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. **
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I believe Christ.

 

[angie08]

Under what authority can you even begin to entertain that thought when you have no idea why you believe that the Word of God is inspired? * See bold above* You seem to be very misguided and talk out of biased ignorance of the Catholic Church and her teachings. I will pray for you. Anyone who is happy with their Bible and has no proof that our Bible is the inspired Word of God needs prayers and I will pray for you. You are lost and you are here to cry out that message.

You misunderstand what I was trying to say. I meant that there is no proof that the bible we have right now is the true bible. I was referring to all the arguments that there are some books not included in the bible that should be or that there are some books in the bible that shouldn’t be. I believe that when the bible was put together, the men who did it were inspired by God to include certain books and not others. However, there is absolutely no way to prove this physical evidence. There is no doubt in my mind that the bible is the inspired word of God. It was written by many different authors and yet there are no errors in it; there are no contradictions between different authors of what the truth is. I believe this shows that God guided the people who wrote the bible and put it together. However, since we were not alive then and there can be nothing physical to show that God inspired the writers, there is no absolute proof that the bible is inspired by God. That is all I was trying to say. I know that the bible proves itself to those who read it. So don’t take my words and try to twist them around so it seems like I don’t have a strong faith. My faith is very strong because I went through a time when I lost my faith. It took a lot of time to get it back and a lot of reading the bible and a lot of praying. My faith is stronger because of the struggles I’ve had with it.

I do admit, though, that I do not know everything about the Catholic faith, but I do know more than the average person. My mother was Catholic and I’ve spent some time researching the Catholic teachings. So I will try to make sure I understand what Catholics believe about a subject before I comment about it.

Your experience could be false being that you present unsubstantiated statements and you make your proofs from a bible that you struggle with in understanding its inspiration. Don’t make a fool of yourself. Study first then speak…Peace…teachccd

I have never presented unsubstantiated statements; I always try to have a bible verse to back up what I’m saying. I know that a bible verse taken out of context can prove anything. So I make sure I read the entire section of the bible I am taking the passage from and interpret it from that and a basic understanding of the bible as a whole. Maybe you should focus on what I say and try to understand that instead of being more concerned about making me look bad by claiming that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

 

[angie08]

Three sets of questions:

Why are the statements that salvation is from God and that good works (help to) get us to heaven mutually exclusive? Doesn’t Ephesians 2 say that good works themselves are gifts of God?

Why do I have to worry about doing “enough good works” to get into heaven? It seems to me that if I’m in good standing with God, then God can make me holy on His own schedule, and I should worry about staying in that good standing and cooperating with God’s plan. I don’t need to think about how many works I “need,” because I know no count of works will ever be enough for me to deserve heaven. I just let God make me actually righteous so that when I’m judged, He can say, “GJx86, you are righteous; enter into heaven.” What’s wrong with this?

If God will never un-save the saved, then what is the message of the parable in Matthew 18:23-35?

Salvation is from God alone. To say that we also need good works for salvation is an obvious contradiction of that. Yes good works do come from God, but that doesn’t mean they are necessary to get to heaven.

You’re right that you can never do enough good works to deserve heaven. That’s exactly my point. The only way to get to heaven is to have faith that Jesus earned it for us. Yes, you should let God make you righteous because works cannot get you to heaven.

I never said that God will never un-save the saved. People who have faith can lose their faith. I was referring to the promise that if we believe in Him we will be saved. God will not break that promise so we can be assured that we are going to heaven if we have faith.

 

[angie08]

How do you take final judgment “out of context”? You will be judged by what you have done. Heaven. Hell. Forever. Period.

I’m the Green River Killer. I know I killed 100 women, but just look at how perfect Jesus’ life was! He paid the price, didn’t he? Yes, he did! And I believe! I haven’t been baptized, I don’t go to church or read the bible. I would kill again and am trying to figure out how to escape so I can keep killing, but I believe! I’m saved. I am GUARANTEED to go to heaven!

Illustrating the absurd by being absurd.

There is a difference between saying you have faith and actually having faith. If he actually had faith, he wouldn’t continue to kill people. I want to point out that if he had killed 100 women and then somehow came to faith in God and stopped killing and truly repented of what he had done, he could have been saved. There is no sin that is too great that God can’t forgvie it. But in your example you say he will keep on killing; that means he doesn’t actually have faith. How can someone believe that Jesus loved us so much that He was willing to die for us and that He forgives all our sins, but still not follow Jesus’ example and care about other people the way He cared about us. If someone has true faith, that faith will produce good works. But the good works are not needed to get into heaven.

What if someone came to faith on their deathbed. They had no time to do any good works, but they will still be saved because they have true faith.

 

[Teflon93]

for good measure, we should throw in here what the Catholic Church teaches about Justification and “Merit.”

This discussion starts in the Catechism of the Catholic Church at paragraph 1987 and especially about Merit at paragraph 2006.

“2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.”

As usual, the CCC is very technical and philosophical, and it doesn’t easily condense into slogans like sola fide or other things that roll off your tongue.

I’m a bit disturbed here in this thread about the apparent confusion between “works of the Law” and “works in general.”

For someone who is genuinely converted in heart and soul and mind, every work is a blessing and gift and a self-less sacrifice. Every good work is done almost mindlessly as an act of worship of God and without regard to the cost.

Conflating works of the law, which St Paul contrasted with works of the faith, is an old Protestant dodge.

I have another thread where I’m listing out everywhere (in the KJV) “works” is referenced in the Bible. You can see the full panoply there, and why fundamentalist Protestants in particular seem only to quote Hebrews and Romans as though that were the only place works is discussed in Scripture.

One must also ask why St Paul had Timothy circumcised, if works of the law damn.

 

[Teflon93]

Salvation is from God alone. To say that we also need good works for salvation is an obvious contradiction of that. Yes good works do come from God, but that doesn’t mean they are necessary to get to heaven.

You’re right that you can never do enough good works to deserve heaven. That’s exactly my point. The only way to get to heaven is to have faith that Jesus earned it for us. Yes, you should let God make you righteous because works cannot get you to heaven.

I never said that God will never un-save the saved. People who have faith can lose their faith. I was referring to the promise that if we believe in Him we will be saved. God will not break that promise so we can be assured that we are going to heaven if we have faith.

Matthew 25 describes the basis on which we will be judged. It is not on belief, but on what we have done with the grace God has granted us. I’d post it again, but I’ve done it so many times now the mods may ban me for being a broken record!

Just to be different, how do you square your belief with this:

John 10:25 - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.

or

John 10:37 - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

or

John 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father

or

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

or

Revelation 2:26 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

or

Revelation 14:13 - And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

or

Revelation 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

?

 

[GJx86]

Salvation is from God alone. To say that we also need good works for salvation is an obvious contradiction of that. Yes good works do come from God, but that doesn’t mean they are necessary to get to heaven.

So what’s the problem with the following reasoning?

1. All “good works” – i.e., those that are active along with faith (Jas 2:22) justify us
2. God is the source of all such works
3. Therefore, God is the source of our justification, for without Him we have no such works

I don’t see any obvious contradiction here. Works can be necessary for salvation without denying that God is entirely responsible for saving us.

This seems to make sense in light of Eph 2:10’s teaching about the source of works and Jas 2:21-24/Ps 106:30-31’s teaching about how works actually justify.

 

[teachccd]

I have never presented unsubstantiated statements; I always try to have a bible verse to back up what I’m saying. I know that a bible verse taken out of context can prove anything. So I make sure I read the entire section of the bible I am taking the passage from and interpret it from that and a basic understanding of the bible as a whole. Maybe you should focus on what I say and try to understand that instead of being more concerned about making me look bad by claiming that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

I never said or implied that you don’t know what you are talking about. I merely stated that you do not have enough information regarding your resource (the bible) to make credible declarations. If you cannot answer how we got the bible or how you can be assured of its inspiration then how can you exhort anyone to follow it? I know that the bible was acknowledged by the Catholic Church and the same inspired Catholic Church interprets Scripture by the guidance of the same Holy Spirit that inspired its authors. It’s like having the U.S.constitution given to the people without the U.S. Supreme Court to interpret and uphold its contents.

Now, I would focus on what you say if you would only answer my questions concerning the origin and inspiration of the bible that you quote…I’m not trying to make you look bad. Please. I’m just asking for an understanding of where you stand in your understanding of Scripture…that’s all

 

[teachccd]

I have never presented unsubstantiated statements; I always try to have a bible verse to back up what I’m saying. I know that a bible verse taken out of context can prove anything. So I make sure I read the entire section of the bible I am taking the passage from and interpret it from that and a basic understanding of the bible as a whole. Maybe you should focus on what I say and try to understand that instead of being more concerned about making me look bad by claiming that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Can you comment on my post #21? You say that I make you look bad but you don’t respond to any of my questions. How can I say that you don’t know what you are talking about when you won’t talk about my concerns?? Re-read my previous posts and comment on them. So far you have just been shooting out remarks without answering my questions…