What is the view of the Jewish Faith towards Christ?

jmj1984 · Dec 3, 2011

I was wondering what the view of the Jewish faith was towards Christ? I don’t mean the view of individual views but the actual ‘official’ view, i.e is there anything in the Talmud etc…?

Nelka · Dec 3, 2011

They probably don’t even think about Him as He is not part of their lives.

meltzerboy · Dec 3, 2011

jmj1984 said:
I was wondering what the view of the Jewish faith was towards Christ? I don’t mean the view of individual views but the actual ‘official’ view, i.e is there anything in the Talmud etc…?

Jesus Christ is not a topic of conversation among most ordinary Jews. He is recognized as having existed by most and as having been a rabbi and an important historical religious figure. Most modern rabbis do not consider Jesus as a prophet. Jesus is not regarded as the Messiah or the son of G-d in Judaism. He does not occupy a place in the Jewish liturgy.

ChrisB103 · Dec 3, 2011

meltzerboy said:
Jesus Christ is not a topic of conversation among most Jews. He is recognized as having existed by most and as having been a rabbi. Most modern rabbis do not consider Jesus as a prophet. Jesus is not regarded as the Messiah or the son of G-d in Judaism. He does not occupy a place in the Jewish liturgy.

Quick side question, meltzerboy. What are your views (or common Jewish views) on John the Baptist and St. Paul? Just curious, I’m not trying to shift the conversation from the OP. Thanks in advance!

jmj1984 · Dec 3, 2011

anyone know anything about the so called jesus narratives in the talmud?

meltzerboy · Dec 3, 2011

ChrisB103 said:
Quick side question, meltzerboy. What are your views (or common Jewish views) on John the Baptist and St. Paul? Just curious, I’m not trying to shift the conversation from the OP. Thanks in advance!

The majority of Jews most likely know next to nothing about John the Baptist and St. Paul. Some couldn’t even tell you the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. Too many Jews don’t know much about the Torah and the rest of the Hebrew Bible, let alone the New Testament.

jmj1984 · Dec 3, 2011

What I mean is passages like these?

Punishment in hell

In Gittin 56b, 57a a story is mentioned in which Onkelos -intent on converting to Judaism- summons up the spirit of Yeshu. He describes his punishment in the afterlife as boiling in excrement. Relevant passages from the Talmud that scholars address in this context include:[86]

The complete passage from the 1935 Soncino edition is:

Code:

Onkelos son of Kolonikos ... went and raised Titus from the dead by magical arts, and asked him; 'Who is most in repute in the [other] world? He replied: Israel. What then, he said, about joining them? He said: Their observances are burdensome and you will not be able to carry them out. Go and attack them in that world and you will be at the top as it is written, Her adversaries are become the head etc.; whoever harasses Israel becomes head. He asked him: What is your punishment [in the other world]? He replied: What I decreed for myself. Every day my ashes are collected and sentence is passed on me and I am burnt and my ashes are scattered over the seven seas. He then went and raised Balaam by incantations. He asked him: Who is in repute in the other world? He replied: Israel. What then, he said, about joining them? He replied: Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever. He then asked: What is your punishment? He replied: With boiling hot semen. He then went and raised by incantations Jesus [in Vilna edition: "the sinners of Israel"; "Jesus" appears in Munich 95 and Vatican 130, 140 manuscripts]. He asked them: Who is in repute in the other world? They replied: Israel. What about joining them? They replied: Seek their welfare, seek not their harm. Whoever touches them touches the apple of his eye. He said: What is your punishment? They replied: With boiling hot excrement, since a Master has said: Whoever mocks at the words of the Sages is punished with boiling hot excrement. Observe the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the other nations who worship idols. It has been taught: Note from this incident how serious a thing it is to put a man to shame, for God espoused the cause of Bar Kamza and destroyed His House and burnt His Temple.
—Babylonian Talmud, Gittin 56b-57a

As a sinful student who practiced magic and turned to idolatry

Passages in Sanhedrin 107b and Sotah 47a refer to an individual that some scholars conclude is a reference to Jesus, regarded as the messiah of Christianity. In these passages, Jesus is described as a student of Yehoshua ben Perachya (second half of the 2nd century), and he (Jesus) was sent away for misinterpreting a word that in context should have been understood as referring to the Inn; he instead understood it to mean the innkeeper’s wife (the same word can mean “inn” and “hostess”).[82] His teacher said “Here is a nice inn”, to which he replied “Her eyes are crooked”, to which his teacher responded “Evil one! Is this what you are occupied in?” (Gazing at women was considered sinful.) [83] After several returns for forgiveness he mistook Perachiah’s signal to wait a moment as a signal of final rejection, and so he turned to idolatry. Some passages that have been identified by scholars as mentioning Jesus, as the messiah of Christianity, in this context include:[84]

Code:

Babylonian Sanhedrin 107b – "not as Yehoshua b. Perahya who pushed Jesus the Nazarene away" (Editions or MSs: Barco, Vilna)
Babylonian Sotah 47a – "not as Yehoshua b. Perahya who pushed Jesus the Nazarene away" (Editions or MSs: Vatican 110, Vilna, Munich 95)
Babyonian Sanhedrin 107b – "Jesus said to him: Rabbi, her eyes are narrow" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1)
Babylonian Sotah 47a – "Jesus the Nazarene said to him: Rabbi, here eyes are narrow" (Editions or MS: Oxford 20)
Babylonian Sanhedrin 107b – "The master said: Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic (Editions or MSs: Firenze II.1.8–9, Barco )
Babylonian Sotah 47a – "The master said: Jesus the Nazarene because he practiced magic" (Editions or MS: Munich 95)

I’ll hold my hands up and say its from wikipedia, but I just want to know if these things are actually true or people are just making them up

Cat_Herder · Dec 3, 2011

I think those passages reference a “Balaam” and do not name Jesus. Some Jewish scholars thought this “Balaam” was a reference to Jesus and from there arose the claim that the Talmud contained blasphemous material.

The Anti-Defamation League put out this press release to explain all of this.

meltzerboy · Dec 3, 2011

jmj1984 said:
anyone know anything about the so called jesus narratives in the talmud?

I am not a Talmudic scholar, but I know one must be careful about understanding what the Talmud says about Jesus, for example the writing of Maimonides, on several counts. One important consideration is the Jewish culture of medieval times in response to antisemitic rhetoric, which itself must be studied in its proper context. Another is the number of times discussion of Jesus appears, which is minuscule. Further, certain disgusting descriptions of Jesus attributed to the Talmud have in fact been fabricated by antisemitic groups. Finally, references to Yeshua are often in regard to another person or people by the same name as Jesus, who lived prior to Him.

chosen_people · Dec 4, 2011

jmj1984 said:
I was wondering what the view of the Jewish faith was towards Christ? I don’t mean the view of individual views but the actual ‘official’ view, i.e is there anything in the Talmud etc…?

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

א אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם–אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ. {פ}

ב כִּי-יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא, אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם; וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת, אוֹ מוֹפֵת. ג וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת, אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר: נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדַעְתָּם–וְנָעָבְדֵם. ד לֹא תִשְׁמַע, אֶל-דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא, אוֹ אֶל-חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם, הַהוּא: כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֶתְכֶם, לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. ה אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ; וְאֶת-מִצְו‍ֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן.

Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

The Jesus figure is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

God tests the Jews to keep the eternal covenant between Him and the Jewish people. From a Jewish perspective, for a Jew to “believe” in the Jesus figure is a failure of God’s test. While Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as the Gentile has only to uphold the seven Noahide commandments, the penalty of failing God’s test for a Jew is to be separated forever from God in the World to Come.

chosen_people · Dec 4, 2011

jmj1984 said:
What I mean is passages like these?

I’ll hold my hands up and say its from wikipedia, but I just want to know if these things are actually true or people are just making them up

This web site will be able to help you concerning your question about references in the Talmud.

talmud.faithweb.com/

chosen_people · Dec 4, 2011

Nelka said:
They probably don’t even think about Him as He is not part of their lives.

It’s similar to asking a Christian about the Christian beliefs about Buddha

jmj1984 · Dec 4, 2011

chosen_people said:
It’s similar to asking a Christian about the Christian beliefs about Buddha

Except of course Budhha didn’t claim to be the promised messiah…

Someone who claims to be the promised messiah of a particular faith, who is then rejected by said faith and goes on to found one of the most influential faiths of all time, is hardly equivalent to asking Christians about Buddha

Conor7 · Dec 4, 2011

jmj1984 said:
Except of course Budhha didn’t claim to be the promised messiah…

Someone who claims to be the promised messiah of a particular faith, who is then rejected by said faith and goes on to found one of the most influential faiths of all time, is hardly equivalent to asking Christians about Buddha

I’m not certain Jesus claims to be the promised messiah. The scriptures like to dance around the issue and hint at it, but neither Jesus nor the authors of the New Testament say explicitly that he is the messiah.

TheRealJuliane · Dec 4, 2011

Conor7 said:
I’m not certain Jesus claims to be the promised messiah. The scriptures like to dance around the issue and hint at it, but neither Jesus nor the authors of the New Testament say explicitly that he is the messiah.

What??? He quoted the prophets all the time, and called himself The Son of Man and The Way, The Truth and the Light - Of COURSE he was saying he was the promised Messiah!

Cat_Herder · Dec 4, 2011

chosen_people said:
If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”

you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

The Jesus figure is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.
.

Of course, Christians do not believe that the “son of God and the trinity” are different gods than God. Reality is simply the mind of God. All of God’s creatures who have some modicum of intelligence have a mental self image. My cat recognizes herself in the mirror because she knows that the cat in the mirror matches her self-image. God is far more intelligent than any creature, therefore God must have a self image as well. Since God’s mind is reality, God’s self image is as real as God is and because God’s self image is a SELF-image, the image will be of the same nature or substance as God, that is, the image or Logos is also God. It is this Logos Who is the Son of God, Who became incarnate as Jesus Christ when the world was prepared for its reconciliation with God.

My cat does not hate her self image. She reacts to it with curiosity and ultimately with peace. Likewise God has a relationship with the Logos, and this relationship is one of love. But God’s mind is reality and God’s love for the Logos is as real as God and the Logos. Likewise, God’s love is perfect, and absolute perfection is the nature or substance of God. Therefore the love of God for the Logos is a real Divine Person with the substance of God, and is called the Holy Spirit. This Perfect Love is how God manifested in the world to the Jewish people as the Shekinah.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all the One God. They are of the same Divine Substance or Essence, and their manifestation as the Trinity is simply the logical result of the Divine perfection.

meltzerboy · Dec 4, 2011

Cat_Herder said:
Of course, Christians do not believe that the “son of God and the trinity” are different gods than God. Reality is simply the mind of God. All of God’s creatures who have some modicum of intelligence have a mental self image. My cat recognizes herself in the mirror because she knows that the cat in the mirror matches her self-image. God is far more intelligent than any creature, therefore God must have a self image as well. Since God’s mind is reality, God’s self image is as real as God is and because God’s self image is a SELF-image, the image will be of the same nature or substance as God, that is, the image or Logos is also God. It is this Logos Who is the Son of God, Who became incarnate as Jesus Christ when the world was prepared for its reconciliation with God.

My cat does not hate her self image. She reacts to it with curiosity and ultimately with peace. Likewise God has a relationship with the Logos, and this relationship is one of love. But God’s mind is reality and God’s love for the Logos is as real as God and the Logos. Likewise, God’s love is perfect, and absolute perfection is the nature or substance of God. Therefore the love of God for the Logos is a real Divine Person with the substance of God, and is called the Holy Spirit. This Perfect Love is how God manifested in the world to the Jewish people as the Shekinah.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all the One God. They are of the same Divine Substance or Essence, and their manifestation as the Trinity is simply the logical result of the Divine perfection.

I am not going to take issue with you concerning what you say about G-d. The notion of the Trinity has been discussed and debated, not only between Christians and Jews but also between Christians themselves for centuries. Where I must take issue, however, is with your reference to your cat! Cats do NOT recognize their own self-image in the mirror, and if yours does, this is a breakthrough occurrence.

jmj1984 · Dec 4, 2011

Conor7 said:
I’m not certain Jesus claims to be the promised messiah. The scriptures like to dance around the issue and hint at it, but neither Jesus nor the authors of the New Testament say explicitly that he is the messiah.

The Scriptures are actually explicit on this matter, the only one this claim could be sustained is if you had never read the four gospels or you believed them to be inaccurate.

jmj1984 · Dec 4, 2011

chosen_people said:
Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

א אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם–אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ. {פ}

ב כִּי-יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא, אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם; וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת, אוֹ מוֹפֵת. ג וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת, אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר: נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדַעְתָּם–וְנָעָבְדֵם. ד לֹא תִשְׁמַע, אֶל-דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא, אוֹ אֶל-חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם, הַהוּא: כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֶתְכֶם, לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. ה אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ; וְאֶת-מִצְו‍ֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן.

Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”

you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

The Jesus figure is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

God tests the Jews to keep the eternal covenant between Him and the Jewish people. From a Jewish perspective, for a Jew to “believe” in the Jesus figure is a failure of God’s test. While Judaism teaches that it is easier for the Gentile than for the Jew to get into the World to Come as the Gentile has only to uphold the seven Noahide commandments, the penalty of failing God’s test for a Jew is to be separated forever from God in the World to Come.

I was referring more to what they actually thought of Jesus, i.e has he been misrepesented, was he lying or simply wrong etc…

Conor7 · Dec 4, 2011

jmj1984 said:
The Scriptures are actually explicit on this matter, the only one this claim could be sustained is if you had never read the four gospels or you believed them to be inaccurate.

No, my only point is, nowhere in the NT does Jesus say, “I am the Messiah.” We can infer a lot from the information given, but Jesus never says, “Hi, I’m Jesus, the Messiah.”

I could be wrong; it’s happened before.

What is the view of the Jewish Faith towards Christ?

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