What is the view of the Jewish Faith towards Christ?

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jmj1984 said:
I was referring more to what they actually thought of Jesus, i.e has he been misrepesented, was he lying or simply wrong etc…
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That rather depends on how one views the NT.

You seem to be assuming that we have to view it as anything other than a collection of stories. Christians take it as reportage and sacred text. If one views it as neither, then commentary becomes a matter of literary criticism - discussing whether somebody in a work of literature was ‘misrepresented’, ‘lying’ or ‘simply wrong’ - which one might indulge in but isn’t exactly important.
 
Conor7 said:
No, my only point is, nowhere in the NT does Jesus say, “I am the Messiah.” We can infer a lot from the information given, but Jesus never says, “Hi, I’m Jesus, the Messiah.”

I could be wrong; it’s happened before.
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Thats taking a very literal and frankly unreasonable point of view. Jesus states in his parables and teaching, which he verifies with his miracles, that he is the messiah. As for an explicit claim of Jesus being the messiah, which is not a parable there are several:

Matthew 16:13-20

'**And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ. '**

Matthew 26:63-66 '**But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priests rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy:

What think you? But they answering, said: He is guilty of death.**

Matthew Chapter 9:1-7 '** And entering into a boat, he passed over the water and came into his own city. And behold they brought to him one sick of the palsy lying in a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the man sick of the palsy: Be of good heart, son, thy sins are forgiven thee. And behold some of the scribes said within themselves: He blasphemeth. And Jesus seeing their thoughts, said: Why do you think evil in your hearts? Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk?

But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then said he to the man sick of palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house. And he arose, and went into his house. **

Matthew Chapter 10:32-38 '**Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it. He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. **

Matthew Chapter 11:1-6 ‘** And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he passed from thence, to teach and preach in their cities. Now when John had heard in prison the works of Christ: sending two of his disciples he said to him: Art thou he that art to come, or look we for another? And Jesus making answer said to them: Go and relate to John what you have heard and seen. The blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead rise again, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he that shall not be scandalized in me**.’

Matthew Chapter 12:1-8 '** At that time Jesus went through the corn on the sabbath: and his disciples being hungry, began to pluck the ears, and to eat. And the Pharisees seeing them, said to him: Behold thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days. But he said to them: Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and they that were with him: How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the loaves of proposition, which it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for them that were with him, but for the priests only? Or have ye not read in the law, that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple break the sabbath, and are without blame?

But I tell you that there is here a greater than the temple. And if you knew what this meaneth: I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: you would never have condemned the innocent. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath. **

Matthew 15:24 ’ And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel’

There are of course many more but I don’t have the time to look them all up 😛

All of these would have been gross blasphemies if he was not claiming to be the chosen one sent by God.
 
Kaninchen said:
That rather depends on how one views the NT.

You seem to be assuming that we have to view it as anything other than a collection of stories. Christians take it as reportage and sacred text. If one views it as neither, then commentary becomes a matter of literary criticism - discussing whether somebody in a work of literature was ‘misrepresented’, ‘lying’ or ‘simply wrong’ - which one might indulge in but isn’t exactly important.
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I admit I do presume good faith on the part of jews to investigate the matter, but considering whats at stake I hardly think thats unreasonable.
 
jmj1984 said:
I admit I do presume good faith on the part of jews to investigate the matter, but considering whats at stake I hardly think thats unreasonable.
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Good faith? Should we presume ‘good faith’ on the part of Catholics to investigate Islam and Mormonism?

‘What’s at stake’ is what is at stake as far as you’re concerned, something with which members of other ‘agree with us or you’re doomed’ religions would concur, of course, except they’d apply it to you as well. 😉
 
@jmj1984

I see your point and I think we’ve gotten ourselves playing a game of semantics, which is 99% my fault. I’m leaving 1% for you because I am charitable. 😉
 
Kaninchen said:
Good faith? Should we presume ‘good faith’ on the part of Catholics to investigate Islam and Mormonism?

‘What’s at stake’ is what is at stake as far as you’re concerned, something with which members of other ‘agree with us or you’re doomed’ religions would concur, of course, except they’d apply it to you as well. 😉
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Not true sadly.

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah the jews were (and some still are) waiting for, and then founded an entire faith system, that gives rise to a requirement to at least investigate whether the person was speaking the truth or not, to investigate that faith, that does not arise between Catholicism and other faiths.
 
Conor7 said:
No, my only point is, nowhere in the NT does Jesus say, “I am the Messiah.” We can infer a lot from the information given, but Jesus never says, “Hi, I’m Jesus, the Messiah.”

I could be wrong; it’s happened before.
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Here you go:
“Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.”
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Matthew 16:16-17
 
Just to chime in here, “Christ” means the same thing as “Messiah”, it’s a translation of the same Hebrew word. So any time someone calls Jesus “Christ”, they’re saying he’s the Messiah.

For example,

**Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24)**

etc.

It doesn’t seem to me like the NT authors dance around the topic at all, it’s pretty explicit.

God bless,
 
jmj1984 said:
I admit I do presume good faith on the part of jews to investigate the matter, but considering whats at stake I hardly think thats unreasonable.
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In the process of investigating, one of the matters I have difficulty reconciling is the Christian belief that the Messiah is equivalent to the Son of G-d. Nowhere in the Masoretic text (perhaps more so in the Septuagint) of the Hebrew Bible have I found evidence that the Messiah is supposed to be divine. Another challenge for me is that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. These include world peace between the nations, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the observance of Torah Law on a worldwide basis. A third problem is the idea of the Second Coming, which for the Messiah is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible. And finally, the concept of a Savior, a Redeemer of the sins of humanity, runs counter to the Hebrew Bible’s prohibition against vicarious atonement. Even more problematic, it is not a concept associated with the Messiah. Moses reiterates that atonement is a continual process and not so difficult to achieve by one’s own efforts in following the Law, however imperfectly. IOW, the notion of universal redemption and salvation from original sin is foreign to Judaism. (And it does not erase the future probability of sin according to Catholic teaching either.) Now I have found out many interesting things in the course of my studying, such as that Jesus is thought to be the reconstructed Temple Himself; the so-called Eternal Covenant, reiterated by G-d to Moses many times, has transformed into a New Covenant though it does not exactly break with the Old Covenant, but instead fulfills and elaborates upon it; the Old Covenant can be compared to an instructional manual for a people who would not be able to understand the message of Jesus at that time in history, IOW the religious revelation of Christianity has been incremental, starting with Judaism; the message of the Gospels expands salvation to the Gentile on an equal footing with the Jew; there are parallels between Jesus and Adam, between the Virgin Mary and Noah’s Ark; and many other enlightening pieces of information. Is this all another, deeper layer of interpretation of Judaism or a gradual departure from the teachings of Judaism? I’m evaluating this and more in the context of the Hebrew Bible.
 
meltzerboy said:
In the process of investigating, one of the matters I have difficulty reconciling is the Christian belief that the Messiah is equivalent to the Son of G-d. Nowhere in the Masoretic text (perhaps more so in the Septuagint) of the Hebrew Bible have I found evidence that the Messiah is supposed to be divine. Another challenge for me is that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. These include world peace between the nations, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the observance of Torah Law on a worldwide basis. A third problem is the idea of the Second Coming, which for the Messiah is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible. And finally, the concept of a Savior, a Redeemer of the sins of humanity, runs counter to the Hebrew Bible’s prohibition against vicarious atonement. Even more problematic, it is not a concept associated with the Messiah. Moses reiterates that atonement is a continual process and not so difficult to achieve by one’s own efforts in following the Law, however imperfectly. IOW, the notion of universal redemption and salvation from original sin is foreign to Judaism. (And it does not erase the future probability of sin according to Catholic teaching either.) Now I have found out many interesting things in the course of my studying, such as that Jesus is thought to be the reconstructed Temple Himself; the so-called Eternal Covenant, reiterated by G-d to Moses many times, has transformed into a New Covenant though it does not exactly break with the Old Covenant, but instead fulfills and elaborates upon it; the Old Covenant can be compared to an instructional manual for a people who would not be able to understand the message of Jesus at that time in history, IOW the religious revelation of Christianity has been incremental, starting with Judaism; the message of the Gospels expands salvation to the Gentile on an equal footing with the Jew; there are parallels between Jesus and Adam, between the Virgin Mary and Noah’s Ark; and many other enlightening pieces of information. Is this all another, deeper layer of interpretation of Judaism or a gradual departure from the teachings of Judaism? I’m evaluating this and more in the context of the Hebrew Bible.
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I suppose thats for another thread, but at least you’ve investigated 🙂
 
Jmd96 said:
Just to chime in here, “Christ” means the same thing as “Messiah”, it’s a translation of the same Hebrew word. So any time someone calls Jesus “Christ”, they’re saying he’s the Messiah.

For example,

**Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24)**

etc.

It doesn’t seem to me like the NT authors dance around the topic at all, it’s pretty explicit.

God bless,
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Thanks for the extra verses.
 
jmj1984 said:
Not true sadly.

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah the jews were (and some still are) waiting for, and then founded an entire faith system, that gives rise to a requirement to at least investigate whether the person was speaking the truth or not, to investigate that faith, that does not arise between Catholicism and other faiths.
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Again, that’s from your perspective.
 
Kaninchen said:
No, just the perspective of a ‘reasonable man’ starting with your set of paradigms.
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I can’t see this going anywhere 🤷

You’ve made no argument but merely ‘no because thats just your view…’

Have you got any facts or logic to make, or are your merely to repeat ad absurdam that I’m wrong?

It is entirely unreasonable to not consider our own end, or to not examine whether a person like Jesus was right or not. That has nothing to do with ‘paradigms’ or whatever red herrings you want to throw in the mix.
 
jmj1984 said:
I can’t see this going anywhere 🤷

You’ve made no argument but merely ‘no because thats just your view…’

Have you got any facts or logic to make, or are your merely to repeat ad absurdam that I’m wrong?

It is entirely unreasonable to not consider our own end, or to examining whether a person like Jesus was right or not. That has nothing to do with ‘paradigms’ or whatever red herrings you want to throw in the mix.
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After over a decade and a half of discussing Christianity and Judaism on Christian message boards (including five years on CAF), I think I’ve become aware of most of the possible Christian approaches to talking to Jews and, I have to tell you, the ‘asserting that one is right and saying that people who say that it’s all you’re doing are illogical and have no ‘facts’’’ isn’t really the best approach.

This conversation started with my pointing out that you were assuming that we should ascribe the same kind of value on the NT that you do, so far all you’ve said is words to the effect of that I must.
 
Kaninchen said:
After over a decade and a half of discussing Christianity and Judaism on Christian message boards (including five years on CAF), I think I’ve become aware of most of the possible Christian approaches to talking to Jews and, I have to tell you, the ‘asserting that one is right and saying that people who say that it’s all you’re doing are illogical and have no ‘facts’’’ isn’t really the best approach.

This conversation started with my pointing out that you were assuming that we should ascribe the same kind of value on the NT that you do, so far all you’ve said is words to the effect of that I must.
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No, that isn’t what I’ve said. What I said was that jews in particular are bound to investigate the matter, nothing more and nothing less.
 
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