What is the vocation of same-sex-attracted Catholics?

[Fauken]

(as, say, when entering an intentionally Josephite marriage, or marrying someone who becomes incapable of completing the sexual act… or, say espousing ourselves to God himself whose human body was celibate in his earthly life and is now in heaven where there is no more marriage or sex at all)

A Josephite Marriage is an exceptional case which requires discernment by both parties. It is not the norm. There is, if I’m not mistaken, canonical basis for this exceptional case of marriage, but there is no such exception in Consecrated Virginity. As for incapability of completing the martial act, sterility may not be an impediment, but impotency is and invalidates the marriage.

Consecrated Virginity is indeed supposed to be a reflection of life in heaven where there is no marriage, but again, if one doesn’t care for the marital aspect of it, if one can’t view a husband as a spouse, then one shouldn’t become a Consecrated Virgin.

 

[sealabeag]

Well yeah, I would agree with this, but it still leaves us in a position where a ssa person could, if they felt attracted to the idea of spiritual espousal to Christ, become a consecrated virgin. And as @MNathaniel pointed out, since it is a spiritual, not physical marriage, physical attraction is not relevant, so long as some kind of spousal affectivity, for want of a better word, exists, and I’m certain it could for a same-sex attracted woman, then it’s a possibility. Every person is called to Divine Intimacy, and whilst I understand consecrated virginity is a particularly spousal image or vocation, divine intimacy is for every Christian, including males.

 

[SerraSemper]

. Every person is called to Divine Intimacy, and whilst I understand consecrated virginity is a particularly spousal image or vocation, divine intimacy is for every Christian, including males.

Certainly, Divine intimacy is for every Christian, but Sacred Virgins are called, as I have said earlier in this thread, to a spousal affectivity and spiritual maternity. That requires as I have repeatedly stated, a proper affectivity. What is said of priests is true conversely of sacred virgins, who represent the Church:

The candidate to the ordained ministry, therefore, must reach affective maturity. Such maturity will allow him to relate correctly to both men and women, developing in him a true sense of spiritual fatherhood towards the Church community that will be entrusted to him

Here’s my paraphrase:
The sacred virgin must reach affective maturity. Such maturity will allow her to relate correctly to both men and women, developing in her a true sense of spiritual motherhood towards the Church community that she lives in.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I also don’t think that viewing Christ as a spouse requires thinking of Christ as a sexual partner.

I would certainly hope not. The idea of anyone viewing Christ (or the Virgin Mary) as a sexual partner viscerally disgusts me.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Which is to say, that’s one reason we should be careful in extending the marital imagery too far.

 

[MNathaniel]

The sacred virgin must reach affective maturity. Such maturity will allow her to relate correctly to both men and women, developing in her a true sense of spiritual motherhood towards the Church community that she lives in.

All persons much reach affective maturity, and all persons must learn to relate correctly to both men and women. All women are called to grow in a true sense of spiritual motherhood, and all men are called to eventually be spiritual fathers.

If you think a person who experiences the temptation of SSA is categorically incapable of relating correctly to men and women, the problem is with your misunderstanding of persons who experience SSA.

MNathaniel:

I also don’t think that viewing Christ as a spouse requires thinking of Christ as a sexual partner.

I would certainly hope not. The idea of anyone viewing Christ (or the Virgin Mary) as a sexual partner viscerally disgusts me.

Which is to say, that’s one reason we should be careful in extending the marital imagery too far.

I agree, and I think that visceral disgust is part of what’s prompting my intense responses on this thread. There seems to be a subtext below what one person is saying (in trying to exclude SSA people from becoming consecrated virgins), that the marital/spousal imagery of their relationship with Christ is related to her sexual attraction to the male body. Since she seems to think a person should have to experience sexual attraction to the male body, to be espoused to Christ.

I think it’s be great if @SerraSemper could explain in different words than those already used (e.g. drop the “proper affectivity” jargon) exactly what she means by her spousal feelings about Christ, that she believes couldn’t be shared by a woman who experiences SSA.

 

[SerraSemper]

Which is to say, that’s one reason we should be careful in extending the marital imagery too far.

Or, it should be good to see why the spousal imagery is applied to the Virgin Christ and Virgin Church… because the spousal relationship does not need to be consummated carnally, or a person be physically attracted to Christ… that is not what is meant by spousal affectivity.

 

[MNathaniel]

Or, it should be good to see why the spousal imagery is applied to the Virgin Christ and Virgin Church… because the spousal relationship does not need to be consummated carnally, or a person be physically attracted to Christ… that is not what is meant by spousal affectivity.

If it is not about physical attraction, then stop suggesting that SSA persons should be excluded on the basis of SSA which is about physical attraction.

 

[SerraSemper]

t is related to her sexual attraction to the male body.

It is you who is putting words in my mouth that I do not endorse. I have never said “sexual attraction to the male body” needing to be directed to Christ. That is your thought. A spouse is there for the “intimate communion of the whole of life”. Thus, the spousal affectivity requires attentiveness and love of the PERSON, a relationship as SPOUSE (not “friend” or “father” or whatever… this is not a PLATONIC relationship as a platonic relationship is devoid of not just sexual feelings but also an actual spousal relationship). I cannot help it if you wish to put your own spin on things… but this likewise goes towards a true MOTHERHOOD. It is a relationship, an affectivity that is not masculine. And I am sorry, but this should go without saying.

 

[catholiclala]

For someone who is supposedly a canon lawyer, the failure to validly express a tight argument is interesting, to say the least. I tried searching for the term spousal affectivity and am finding no reference outside of this conversation.

 

[MNathaniel]

It is you who is putting words in my mouth that I do not endorse. I have never said “sexual attraction to the male body” needing to be directed to Christ. That is your thought. A spouse is there for the “intimate communion of the whole of life”. Thus, the spousal affectivity requires attentiveness and love of the PERSON, a relationship as SPOUSE (not “friend” or “father” or whatever… this is not a PLATONIC relationship as a platonic relationship is devoid of not just sexual feelings but also an actual spousal relationship). I cannot help it if you wish to put your own spin on things… but this likewise goes towards a true MOTHERHOOD. It is a relationship, an affectivity that is not masculine. And I am sorry, but this should go without saying.

Females who experience SSA are not inherently masculine. They are as womanly as you.

If you cannot articulate what “spousal affectivity” is in a way that explains how it has nothing to do with physical sexual attraction but nonetheless inherently excluded people who experience a different physical sexual attraction than you do, the problem is with you failing to figure out the right words, not with my interpretation of your words.

For someone who is supposedly a canon lawyer, the failure to validly express a tight argument is interesting, to say the least. I tried searching for the term spousal affectivity and am finding no reference outside of this conversation.

Yes, that is why I’ve asked her to stop using that jargon and try to put it into her own words more clearly. So far, she seems to have failed effectively to do so.

 

[catholiclala]

Also, SSA women can be maternal, many are mothers.

 

[SerraSemper]

How do you understand the affectivity expressed by

Yes, that is why I’ve asked her to stop using that jargon and try to put it into her own words more clearly. So far, she seems to have failed effectively to do so.

Why don’t you tell us how you interpret the priest needing the proper affectivity for spiritual fatherhood. Do you agree with that? Do you see a sense in which that could be true of woman for spiritual motherhood? Explain.

 

[SerraSemper]

Also, SSA women can be maternal, many are mothers.

Sure. Just like SSA men can be paternal; many are fathers. So how do you explain the Vatican’s position on priests and spiritual fatherhood?

 

[SerraSemper]

And now, all, since I do not see any of you actually arguing from Church documents although I have referenced a few, I will leave it to you guys to do your own research! Enjoy!!

You seem not to understand the difference between a person experiencing SSA, and a person being completely overwhelmed by and actively participant in same-sex sexual behaviours?

You seem not to understand the difference between a person experiencing SSA, and a person being completely overwhelmed by and actively participant in same-sex sexual behaviours?

I understand the difference; it is you who hasn’t understood even the basics of my vocation nor that I have never claimed anything other than consecrated virginity requiring proper affectivity. You have consistently put different spins on that.

 

[MNathaniel]

Why don’t you tell us how you interpret the priest needing the proper affectivity for spiritual fatherhood. Do you agree with that? Do you see a sense in which that could be true of woman for spiritual motherhood? Explain.

1. The onus is on you to prove your assertion, not to endlessly deflect and ask others questions just because you’re incapable of defending your own assertion.
2. A priest receives the sacrament of holy orders which is spiritual fatherhood, yes. This is a sacramental participation in the priesthood of Christ. A priest does need to develop the affectivity of a father versus just a son or brother (if he hears the parable of the prodigal son he must be able not only to relate to the son but also to the father). If a priest who experiences SSA manages to develop this proper fatherly affectivity and does not take identity with his temptations but rather takes his identity in Christ, there’s no issue.

You seem not to understand the difference between a person experiencing SSA, and a person being completely overwhelmed by and actively participant in same-sex sexual behaviours?

 

[catholiclala]

At this point I just don’t care to put the energy into being a semantic scholar and theologian. I don’t pretend to have the ability.

 

[MNathaniel]

And now, all, since I do not see any of you actually arguing from Church documents although I have referenced a few, I will leave it to you guys to do your own research! Enjoy!!

Oh, she runs away on the pretence that she proved something, hoping people will forget that she didn’t.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Or, it should be good to see why the spousal imagery is applied to the Virgin Christ and Virgin Church… because the spousal relationship does not need to be consummated carnally, or a person be physically attracted to Christ… that is not what is meant by spousal affectivity.

This is where you’re losing me. If a lesbian can’t be “spousally affective” towards a man because she isn’t sexually attracted to men, then I don’t see how we can argue that sexual attraction to Christ isnt the determinative factor. I mean, sexual attraction to women as opposed to men is what makes her a lesbian in the first place. It’s the only variable that by definition makes her different than a heterosexual woman.

 

[catholiclala]

What I keep seeing you reference are mostly documents specifically talking about priestly vocation. Not a single thing citing what you are claiming. I can see putting together a coherent argument based on different concepts but you haven’t done that. If you did, I would take it in, ponder, and maybe even agree.