What is this "scientific method" you all speak of?

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Science is a purely social system, dedicated in part to fathom the mysteries of creation; but, actually at its basis is honour, politics, and economics. Unlike the church, it is only individuals within any particular field who would be guided by the Holy Spirit. What I see is that atheist have nothing but science to provide any sort of statement regarding ultimate reality. They therefore get very touchy about it. They have no other explanations for what is immaterial other than vague references to subject and object.
 
Opinions are not subject to “proof”. But this one is simply obvious: an ignorant person cannot make informed decisions. And knowledge of the objective reality can only be gained from observing that reality and studying its workings - which is exactly what science does.

I would suggest that you read what I actually wrote. I do not assert that “everything” must be scientifically “proven”, and I never heard of any materialist who would make such a nonsensical assertion (logical positivism is long dead). It is only the blind assertion of some theists, who do not like to engage in real conversation, and instead throw out such platitudes (like “scientism”). I am sad to point out that you are one of these people. I spent a considerable amount of time to honestly answer your incorrect observation about “equivocation”.
Even with your claim regarding what is required to make informed decisions you are missing the obvious, which comes from the fact-value distinction. If all we have to go by were the observable facts, we would be completely unable to make any decisions whatsoever. Facts, in and of themselves, signify nothing. Meaning and significance does not derive from observable facts and science tells us nothing regarding value.

You may insist that value is entirely subjective, but that insistence, itself, undermines your very claim regarding the value of science because that claim is also, then, merely a subjective one.

You are doing your own bit of horse pushing, though you claim the horse is doing the pulling. The large horsewhip behind your back belies your claim that the horse is showing all the initiative.
 
Hogwash. The apparent fine-tuning of the universe is affirmed by all leading atheistic and agnostic cosmologists who have studied the issue (even though of course their philosophical interpretation of it differs from that of theists).
And denied by others. Can the proponents present actual evidence for their assertion that the “constants” are actually “variables” - since they “could have been different”? If so, let’s see their evidence. If no, then they are simply engaging in empty speculation. The same can be said for the proponents of the “multiverse” theory.

You have this penchant of referring to “authority”. Whether they are atheists or not it does not matter. Can they substantiate what they say?
 
You claimed science was required for ALL informed decisions, I consider your view incorrect, since informed decisions are possible with regard to decisions that pertain solely to internal states.
You just proved again that you do not understand what I said. I did NOT say that science is needed for ALL informed decisions. I explicitly said that informed decisions pertaining to the **external reality **must be based upon the actual workings of external reality. And since the external reality is observable by us, and science helps us to learn its workings in that respect science is the tool one must employ.

Now, if you insist that the external reality is more than what we can observe and it includes some “god, gods, angels, demons or ghosts” that is your business. In that case you need to make your informed decisions based upon what you know about that aspect of the external reality. How do you do that is not my concern. If you can tell me, what epistemological method you employed to learn the facts about that “non-physical” aspect of external reality, I might try them myself. As a matter of fact, I already did, and nothing happened. But of course, it is always I who gets blamed for the lack of success. I was trying to test God, or I was not patient enough, or I did not listen when God talked to me… the idiotic excuses are endless.
If you counter by claiming you think I am wrong, THAT objection would, itself, be a subjective claim no more or less scientifically defensible than my subjective claim.
Oh, but my claim is objective and it can substantiated. All you have to do is start to behave in a haphazard manner, by disregarding everything that you learned about the external reality, and see how long will you survive. Try to drink a few droplets of sulfuric acid - well, better not to actually try. Even those lowly animals pay attention to their environment, they assess the possible dangers, and that very primitive and informal “scientific” method is what keeps them alive. Rats are very fast learners. They observe the other rats, who die after eating some suspicious food, and will not touch it themselves. That is employing the “scientific” method in its simplest form.
I make the opposite claim that at least some of my subjective decisions, in particular those that are specifically about the way in which I decide or determine some things about myself and my internal options do not require any information from science, merely reflection on the internal states existing within my “interior landscape.”
That is your business, and it is perfectly fine by me. As long as your internal decisions only pertain to you, no one should interfere with them.
 
Even with your claim regarding what is required to make informed decisions you are missing the obvious, which comes from the fact-value distinction.
Why waste time on pointing out the obvious? We all (almost all :)) value survival, well-being, love, happiness.
If all we have to go by were the observable facts, we would be completely unable to make any decisions whatsoever.
If you would disregard the fact that a huge truck is headed your way, you would not live long enough to make another foolish decision.
 
And denied by others. Can the proponents present actual evidence for their assertion that the “constants” are actually “variables” - since they “could have been different”? If so, let’s see their evidence. If no, then they are simply engaging in empty speculation.
These “others” who deny it are mostly a one-man-show: Victor Stenger. I have extensively debunked his views in my article, and if you want a devastating critique of his views by a cosmologist, try this one:

arxiv.org/abs/1112.4647

Just like Michael Behe (Darwin’s Black Box), Victor Stenger contradicts mainstream science in an unjustified manner *), and both have in common to twist or ignore scientific facts for the purpose of advancing their respective world views. In other words, the opinions of those who base their cosmological views on Stenger can be taken seriously to no greater extent than the opinions of those anti-evolutionists who base their views on the writings of Behe.

What if the physical constants are immutably fixed against one another and simply could not be any other way? Or if they are not fixed, what if the specific physical constants of our universe are highly probable to occur since certain regions of parameter space are much more likely to be occupied than others? Then the emergence of life is either a necessary or a distinctly probable, natural outcome of how nature works, plain and simple. Yet such necessity or probability of the laws of nature cannot be logically sustained.

Yes, the specific values of the physical constants, which would have to include all the initial conditions of the universe, might be a necessary or highly probable outcome due to a unified basic system and/or a particular universe-creating mechanism that is associated with it. However, even if such necessity or probability of specific physical constants were true – and current knowledge of the physical world makes that seem extremely unlikely – the basic system could also be founded on principles other than those of general relativity and quantum mechanics (possibly unifiable into a theory of ‘quantum gravity’) which hold for our particular universe. The laws of nature could be based on any of an infinitude of other mathematically self-consistent systems imaginable, and specific universe-creating mechanisms that accompany them. Therefore, even if not necessarily within a framework combining general relativity and quantum mechanics, the laws of physics could, in fact, be different in infinitely many ways. This cannot be logically disputed.

Thus, there cannot be either a necessity or a favorable probability of the laws of nature – unless one suggests that “the fabric of nothing” may only allow for certain frameworks of physical laws or law-generating mechanisms to arise. Yet then ‘nothing’ would have to have properties, which is philosophically and logically absurd. Nothing has no properties whatsoever – nothing is, in fact, nothing.

(The ‘physical nothing’ of empty space, the quantum vacuum, is not really nothing at all. For the current common confusion, see the article “Of Nothing” by cosmologist Luke Barnes:

letterstonature.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/of-nothing/ )

In light of all of this, the question will always remain legitimate: why this particular universe, with its exceedingly special laws that allow for physical and biological evolution, for life – and not any other? Again, the issue is that ‘any other’ universe will not suffice, but only very select universes, given the extreme fine-tuning of laws of nature that is necessary for the existence of life.

The only way to circumvent the problem on a naturalistic basis would be by postulating that everything that can exist in fact does exist. Yet this would radically violate Occam’s razor.

Even when it comes to just the framework of general relativity and quantum mechanics, the idea that there might be unique laws of nature (they simply had to be this way) is not one that appears to be upheld by any leading physicists. As cosmologist Lee Smolin writes about a theory that requires uniqueness of physical constants so that they are immutably fixed against each other (The Life of the Cosmos, p. 37, emphasis mine):

“For better or for worse, no such theory has ever been found. Nor is there any reason, besides faith, to hope that a consistent theory that was able to describe something like our world should be unique.”

On p. 76 of the book he says:

“We have so far no evidence to support the conjecture that the requirement that the laws of nature be mathematically consistent, or agree with quantum theory and relativity, constrains significantly the possible masses of the elementary particles or the strengths of the different forces.”
You have this penchant of referring to “authority”.
But this is unavoidable when it comes to scientific consensus. You do the same: your entire ‘scientific’ worldview is based on the authority of science. Or have you personally studied all the transitional fossils? Have you personally done all the sequencing that amasses the vast genetic evidence for evolution? Have you personally done all the observations and calculations of galaxy redshift, nucleogenesis and microwave background radiation that lead to and confirmed the Big Bang theory? No, of course you haven’t.

In fact, all scientists have to rely on the findings of other scientists before them, since no-one has all the time and expertise to perform all the confirmation of findings underlying their work themselves.

*) also with other cosmological opinions, such as his contention that the universe was initially in a state of chaotic high entropy, while mainstream science holds that the initial state of the universe at the Big Bang was one of extremely low entropy (extremely high degree of order).
 
You just proved again that you do not understand what I said. I did NOT say that science is needed for ALL informed decisions. I explicitly said that informed decisions pertaining to the **external reality **must be based upon the actual workings of external reality. And since the external reality is observable by us, and science helps us to learn its workings in that respect science is the tool one must employ.
Well, you see, this shows my point nicely. The same “information” from external reality leads different people to differing metaphysical beliefs (”theories") concerning the way in which the entire external reality should be understood. Ergo, “informed” decisions about external reality do not, ultimately have their sufficiency in external reality.

Those metaphysical assumptions affect how the information from external reality is interpreted and what aspects are considered to be significant or not. Since information is filtered through this metaphysical lens, it seems almost misconceived to insist that external reality “determines” our view of reality as a whole.

We don’t understand reality from external reality, we impose a metaphysical view on the external world based upon our conception of reality, you no less than anyone else; although you work very hard at rationalizing that insistence and have convinced yourself that you hold a pristine and undefiled view of reality itself as being one with physical reality. The problem is that you have done nothing more than come to a conclusion that physical reality is all there is. Yet, physical reality does not confirm such a view in any consistent or overwhelming way, unless you view it through the very lens you are setting out to prove is the lens that depicts it that way.
 
Not for the USAGE of his creation. Are you about to blame the inventor of the “hammer” because someone used it to kill someone by a blow on the head? Technology or science are all morally neutral, however their USAGE is not necessarily so.
This is not well thought out. The hammer was not invented to kill thousands of people. Nuclear weapons were invented precisely for that reason. There is no moral equivalence between the hammer and a nuclear bomb.
 
If you can tell me, what epistemological method you employed to learn the facts about that “non-physical” aspect of external reality, I might try them myself. As a matter of fact, I already did, and nothing happened. But of course, it is always I who gets blamed for the lack of success. I was trying to test God, or I was not patient enough, or I did not listen when God talked to me… the idiotic excuses are endless.

That is your business, and it is perfectly fine by me. As long as your internal decisions only pertain to you, no one should interfere with them.
Our internal decision cannot be exclusively internal. Every value we hold dear is somehow connected with the values of others. You have persistently described subjective values as if they were inferior to your objective scientific facts. Of course they are not. I value love and friendship as the most valuable of values. This value of mine cannot be dissociated from the exterior world. It is not a strictly interior value that is mine and mine alone, that you can afford to say “Keep your values to yourself.” Also, someone who values hatred more than l do isn’t purely subjective. Every act that comes from hatred impacts the world, and nuclear weapons are a result of that hatred active in the world. We know objectively (and without the help of science thank you) that love is better than hate, that a world full of love objectively produces greater happiness than a world full of hate. So yes, I think internal values do not only pertain to me, and if my internal values are savage and destructive, yes I think someone should interfere with them. If my internal values are loving rather than destructive, others should objectively be relieved and happy to celebrate that fact.

It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to understand this. 😉
 
Why waste time on pointing out the obvious? We all (almost all :)) value survival, well-being, love, happiness.

If you would disregard the fact that a huge truck is headed your way, you would not live long enough to make another foolish decision.
Huge trucks take many forms, some are huge concrete trucks, some not so much.

This is one of my qualms with naturalism, in fact. For naturalists the huge trucks only become “menacing” huge trucks when naturalists squirrel in other “facts” about the world that do not derive from the physical world alone.

Take for example moral obligations. Naturalists opt for a supposedly “value neutral” physical reality but when the repercussions of taking that option are pointed out to them, they quickly do a reverse shuffle to the tune of the old “Atheists Can Be Moral” refrain.

Certainly atheists can be moral, but their morality does not derive from anything conspicuous about materialism, since matter is amoral and has no opinions about the way things SHOULD be. Huge trucks are no more menacing as far as nature is concerned than fruit ripening and falling off the tree or a bird plucking the wings off a moth and devouring the soft parts. If atheist materialists were completely consistent with their world view, killing would be merely a repurposing of molecules and dying no more menacing than winter spreading a blanket of frost over the land. Kind of picturesque, actually.

Fortunately, we have reason to think that this world view just might be incomplete and the material forms in front of our eyes do not present the entire story. In fact, they don’t even explain themselves, let alone consciousness, morality or meaning itself. What should we take as significant in the world? is not a question that merely bland observation of that world can answer.

That, by the way, is the reason I am not a materialist or atheist. The best of them take an inadequate world view and clumsily impose it on reality like an ill-fitting, badly tailored -]suit/-] - well, mascot outfit, really, if I’m being honest.
 
Why waste time on pointing out the obvious? We all (almost all :)) value survival, well-being, love, happiness.

If you would disregard the fact that a huge truck is headed your way, you would not live long enough to make another foolish decision.
Not all people are selfish. In fact there are a lot of good Samaritans and altruists in this world. They are not only thinking of their own survival and happiness, but the survival and happiness of people they don’t even know.

If a huge truck were heading in the path of another, there are plenty of good souls who would risk their lives to save the other.
 
If you would disregard the fact that a huge truck is headed your way, you would not live long enough to make another foolish decision.
If I really were a naturalist to the core of my being, the decision couldn’t be a “foolish” one since it would merely entail a collision of one body with a much larger one and the distribution of material constituents to locations other than their original ones. Why would such redistribution be “foolish” under materialism?

It would be under my world view because my world view says there is something very significant and critically important about remaining intact because I am a creature of God with value in an enduring divine plan. A value that is not merely significant to me but the the ground of reality itself.

Under materialism, there is no such underwriting of my significance by anything other than my irrational fear of my physical constituents being repurposed. A fear, as it turns out, that would, indeed, be irrational if I take into account that the “I” that I seek to protect is nothing more substantial than a candle in the wind, an emerging property, which, in itself, is a merely illusory glow cast off by the chemical interactions occurring where my brain is now located.

It is determinably not a “foolish” decision under materialism. It’s more a “Meh, nothing significant here,” kind of determination. That is, IF you are being consistent with your own world view.
 
But this is unavoidable when it comes to scientific consensus. You do the same: your entire ‘scientific’ worldview is based on the authority of science. Or have you personally studied all the transitional fossils? Have you personally done all the sequencing that amasses the vast genetic evidence for evolution? Have you personally done all the observations and calculations of galaxy redshift, nucleogenesis and microwave background radiation that lead to and confirmed the Big Bang theory? No, of course you haven’t.
Very true, but you forgot to dig deep enough. The reference to other people cannot go to infinity. There must be someone is able to substantiate what he says **without **referring to someone else. Is there anyone who can provide **actual evidence **that the “constants” of the Universe “could have been different”? Because all I see is empty speculation. What if the value of “π” would be different? What if the value of e[sup]i*π[/sup] would not equal -1? Some things are just “brute facts”.
In fact, all scientists have to rely on the findings of other scientists before them, since no-one has all the time and expertise to perform all the confirmation of findings underlying their work themselves.
Of course. But that does not mean blind acceptance of someone else’s word. Sometimes even the fundamental concepts are under scrutiny. By the way that is exactly the beauty of science, it is a self-correcting phenomenon - quite unlike religion which is founded on the blind acceptance of some self-proclaimed “authority”, who is unable to substantiate what they say.
 
This is not well thought out. The hammer was not invented to kill thousands of people. Nuclear weapons were invented precisely for that reason. There is no moral equivalence between the hammer and a nuclear bomb.
Actually nuclear weapons are mainly used as deterrent. But let’s not quibble about that. Technology itself is morally neutral, its usage is not.
 
Actually nuclear weapons are mainly used as deterrent. But let’s not quibble about that. Technology itself is morally neutral, its usage is not.
No, you cannot separate the motive for creating a weapon from the weapon itself. There is no positive use of nuclear weapons. They are meant only to kill, and kill big!

Think Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Then think the possibility of nuclear war.

Thanks to scientists along with the politicians who paid them to do the dirty work.
 
. . . Technology itself is morally neutral, its usage is not.
So, CTScan that uses radiation to treat illness = nuclear weapons use radiation to inflict death and illness, in what universe?
 
Actually nuclear weapons are mainly used as deterrent. But let’s not quibble about that. Technology itself is morally neutral, its usage is not.
How can a nuclear weapon which is solely designed to obliterate vast stretches of land and the life living on it be “morally neutral?”

Oh, wait, I forgot… You subscribe to materialism and all of reality is “morally neutral.” Any eventuality is no different than any other, correct?

You have found what is the logically consistent implication from your word view, then?

Now, just don’t arbitrarily leave that position if “moral neutrality” gets you into difficulty later on in the discussion.
 
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