What is torture and should we ever use it

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Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Defines Torture:

Main Entry: 1****tor·ture [%between%](javascript:popWin(’/cgi-bin/audio.pl?tortur01.wav=torture’))
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin *tortura, *from Latin *tortus, *past participle of *torquEre *to twist; probably akin to Old High German *drAhsil *turner, Greek *atraktos *spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : STRAINING
 
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roymckenzie:
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary Defines Torture:

Main Entry: 1****tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Late Latin *tortura, *from Latin *tortus, *past participle of *torquEre *to twist; probably akin to Old High German *drAhsil *turner, Greek *atraktos *spindle
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : STRAINING
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Based on that definition, it doesn’t sound like the prisoners at Gitmo were subject to torture. Sleep deprivation, loud music or voices IMO do not rank as intense mental or physical pain.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Based on that definition, it doesn’t sound like the prisoners at Gitmo were subject to torture. Sleep deprivation, loud music or voices IMO do not rank as intense mental or physical pain.

Lisa N
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Lisa I’d have to disagree. Sleep deprivation can and does cause dementia and halucinations. That’s torture.
Ever been in a big gymasium with a lot of people talking and yelling? Can you imagine that environment for about 18 hours a day for 2 or 3 years? (or more) Perhaps we should listen to Amnesty International when they criticize our U.S. prisons (and they do!) and the guards in our military bases are often prison guards in civilian life. I know several, and only a couple are decent people. You really don’t ever want your loved ones to ever be in the custody of the rest…
As Christians we are called to love our enemies and treat others as we would like to be treated. I can’t imagine a reason to suspend those precepts. Ask any of us who work with prison ministry… Torture is common in prisons.then there are the beatings…the spitting in their food, or not being fed at all, or any of the ten thousand and one ways in which one human being can degrade, harrass, or stress out another human being. Imprisonment is supposed to BE the punishment…not the treatment you get once you’re there. 😦
 
Church Militant:
Lisa I’d have to disagree. Sleep deprivation can and does cause dementia and halucinations. That’s torture.
Ever been in a big gymasium with a lot of people talking and yelling? Can you imagine that environment for about 18 hours a day for 2 or 3 years? (or more) Perhaps we should listen to Amnesty International when they criticize our U.S. prisons (and they do!) and the guards in our military bases are often prison guards in civilian life. I know several, and only a couple are decent people. You really don’t ever want your loved ones to ever be in the custody of the rest…
As Christians we are called to love our enemies and treat others as we would like to be treated. I can’t imagine a reason to suspend those precepts. Ask any of us who work with prison ministry… Torture is common in prisons.then there are the beatings…the spitting in their food, or not being fed at all, or any of the ten thousand and one ways in which one human being can degrade, harrass, or stress out another human being. Imprisonment is supposed to BE the punishment…not the treatment you get once you’re there. 😦
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Of cource CM, this[abuse in the prisons] is a fact of life that will never change, and hardships inflicted on prisoners are more often than not from other prisoners, or groups of prisoners.
I had a “friend” who could tell you some stories, since he was in Menard Correctional Center-[one of the oldest MAX joints, and arguably one of the roughest in the United States] 4 times.
Torture of some sort always has been, and always will be used, in all societies, some are just more open about it.
The best advice, for everyone in general, is to stay out of prison or situations that could lead to your torture or imprisonment, unless they are noble causes, and/or acts of selflessness.
 
CM I don’t think you could get any more than one person to agree on what is ‘torture.’ I think discomfort, manipulation, inconvenience with the intention of obtaining information from a presumed terrorist captured on the battlefield (no uniform and no country he is fighting for thus no Geneva convention applies) is reasonable. I do not mean pulling out fingernails or something like that. I mean modern methods of obtaining necessary information or the kind of punishment that would tend to inspire the prisoner to turn the corner so to speak and not offend again. Frankly incarceration itself is torture. Do you think we ought to ‘love our enemies’ and let them roam loose thereby endangering innocent civilians?

This is where I simply cannot reconcile people who seem out of touch with reality. Innocent law abiding folks are not the ones in Gitmo or frankly in our own US prisons. I think if we can, without causing permanent physical pain or as the definition stated “anguish” help protect innocent civilians then my heart does not bleed to much for the terrorist who isn’t getting sleep or is stuck listening to rap music (I consider that torture frankly but it’s not permanent).

So where do you draw a line CM? Loving our enemies by letting them loose or keeping them in comfort while they ponder their sins? Or applying some mental or physical pressure to obtain information that might save innocent lives?

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
So where do you draw a line CM? Loving our enemies by letting them loose or keeping them in comfort while they ponder their sins? Or applying some mental or physical pressure to obtain information that might save innocent lives?

Lisa N
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I think many of these people that think sleep deprivation or loud music should be outlawed would change their minds if it were their loved one being innocently targeted by the terrorists. I wonder what all the vicitms families of the beheadings think about sleep deprivation? I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I can’t be persuaded that what we do is wrong. If a particular guard goes out on his own to do above and beyond what is accepted, then I would have to be against that. Abu Ghrab was an example of that.
 
can’t help wonder what Jesus would do, or how he would answer this question… :cool:
 
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Fitz:
I think many of these people that think sleep deprivation or loud music should be outlawed would change their minds if it were their loved one being innocently targeted by the terrorists. I wonder what all the vicitms families of the beheadings think about sleep deprivation? I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I can’t be persuaded that what we do is wrong. If a particular guard goes out on his own to do above and beyond what is accepted, then I would have to be against that. Abu Ghrab was an example of that.
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Abu Ghrab is the norm…every day…even here in the US. Nothing justifies torture. Regardless of what an enemy does we have no option according to the NT. Justice is one thing…retribution and torture another. I wish all who think it’s okay could find themselves there just for one 24 hour period. You’d change your tune.

As for “don’t do anything to get there”. That’s good advice…but everyone I know makes mistakes…what will you say when it’s your friend or son, or loved one who is being beaten up while handcuffed to his cell bars or while cuffed & shackled. My friends…there is NO excuse. Does our human vengeance and justice measure up to the character of Christ? I know mine doesn’t.
 
Church Militant:
Abu Ghrab is the norm…every day…even here in the US. Nothing justifies torture. Regardless of what an enemy does we have no option according to the NT. Justice is one thing…retribution and torture another. I wish all who think it’s okay could find themselves there just for one 24 hour period. You’d change your tune.
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I agree, no reason for torture but again, define torture. My definition will be far different than your own. The reality is that losing your freedom is incredible torture. Do you suggest we no longer incarcerate violent criminals?

When looking at a situation you have to weigh the bad with the good. Temporary discomfort that results in a compliant prisoner who no longer throws feces at the guards (this happens all the time) or who provides necessary information to protect innocent civilians is justice. JUSTICE for the CIVILIANS! Remember them? Justice isn’t one sided because your idea of “justice” for the bad guys is injustice for the innocents who suffer as a result.
Church Militant:
As for “don’t do anything to get there”. That’s good advice…but everyone I know makes mistakes…what will you say when it’s your friend or son, or loved one who is being beaten up while handcuffed to his cell bars or while cuffed & shackled. My friends…there is
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NO excuse. Does our human vengeance and justice measure up to the character of Christ? I know mine doesn’t.
I agree there is no reason to beat a compliant prisoner. However having a BIL who’s been in law enforcement for thirty years gives you a bird’s eye view. Sometimes an irrational, high on drugs, strung out dude is impossible to restrain. Now is it justice to allow law enforcement to be beaten up?

Lisa
 
Church Militant:
Abu Ghrab is the norm…every day…even here in the US. Nothing justifies torture. Regardless of what an enemy does we have no option according to the NT. Justice is one thing…retribution and torture another. I wish all who think it’s okay could find themselves there just for one 24 hour period. You’d change your tune.

As for “don’t do anything to get there”. That’s good advice…but everyone I know makes mistakes…what will you say when it’s your friend or son, or loved one who is being beaten up while handcuffed to his cell bars or while cuffed & shackled. My friends…there is NO excuse. Does our human vengeance and justice measure up to the character of Christ? I know mine doesn’t.
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My friend please help me what is ‘NT’?
 
Church Militant:
Abu Ghrab is the norm…every day…even here in the US. Nothing justifies torture. Regardless of what an enemy does we have no option according to the NT. Justice is one thing…retribution and torture another. I wish all who think it’s okay could find themselves there just for one 24 hour period. You’d change your tune.

As for “don’t do anything to get there”. That’s good advice…but everyone I know makes mistakes…what will you say when it’s your friend or son, or loved one who is being beaten up while handcuffed to his cell bars or while cuffed & shackled. My friends…there is NO excuse. Does our human vengeance and justice measure up to the character of Christ? I know mine doesn’t.
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Abu Ghrab the rule rather than the exception? No way. If so, then why did the New York Times have about 50 headline articles only about that instance? I think that since our military allows cameras on location to all these areas that we are in, then we would see it. I think you are carried away with the vengenace thing. We are not seeking vengeance but rather we are seeking that Iraq be allowed to be a free nation with their own government.

I would not want anyone I know to be a prisoner anywhere. Yet, if a person is going to live the life of a combatant, then they run the risk. It is their choice. They aim to kill us, or does that escape you?
 
I strongly suggest that you talk to anyone who HAS been in any prison here in the U.S.

I suggest that you see that site about “Making the Walls Transparent”

The things I described ARE common every day occurences in prisons here in the U.S.
 
Church Militant:
I strongly suggest that you talk to anyone who HAS been in any prison here in the U.S.

I suggest that you see that site about “Making the Walls Transparent”

The things I described ARE common every day occurences in prisons here in the U.S.
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My friend I hope you are not suggesting that we make all prisons go away. Jesus did not say to make prisons go away he said “when I was in prison did you visit me?”
 
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roymckenzie:
My friend I hope you are not suggesting that we make all prisons go away. Jesus did not say to make prisons go away he said “when I was in prison did you visit me?”
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Hardly sir…I’m simply saying that this country is in desperate need of real prison reform in order to stem the tide of recividism and put an end to the all too common abuses that occur in there. I would also point out (with all due respect) that members of law enforcement and “corrections” in particular are less than forthright with the public about the things they allow behind bars. Jails have “goon squads” and have killed prisoners with excessive use of force, then glossed it over in the press. Prison administrators routinely cover up abuses and threaten and harrass prisoners who attempt to get their families to go to the authorities.

Any creature who is confined and abused will bite when released.

Further…you touch on an interesting point of scripture:
If visiting those who are in prison is one of the corporal works of mercy, (as one involved in a small prison apostlate), just how many of us do anything for those people who have been incarcerated?
 
Church Militant:
Hardly sir…I’m simply saying that this country is in desperate need of real prison reform in order to stem the tide of recividism and put an end to the all too common abuses that occur in there. I would also point out (with all due respect) that members of law enforcement and “corrections” in particular are less than forthright with the public about the things they allow behind bars. Jails have “goon squads” and have killed prisoners with excessive use of force, then glossed it over in the press. Prison administrators routinely cover up abuses and threaten and harrass prisoners who attempt to get their families to go to the authorities.

Any creature who is confined and abused will bite when released.

Further…you touch on an interesting point of scripture:
If visiting those who are in prison is one of the corporal works of mercy, (as one involved in a small prison apostlate), just how many of us do anything for those people who have been incarcerated?
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My friend I think you paint with too broad a brush.

I know here in California there have been abuses in our prisons. I also know here in California there were priests who were abusive. I am not equating prison and the Catholic Church in theological equality but I am using them to show where parts might be corrupt the whole is not necessarily corrupt.

The prison I visit, the California Youth Authority for kids 18 to 25 had a big scandal the other day where the video showed a guard beating a prisoner. What came out and was corroborated by 2 of the boys I visit was the youth attacked the guard then dove in front of the camera.

I have compassion for these guys and include them in my prayers every night but they do belong behind bars. These guys know how to use the system and many of them are so slick they are able to get their Christian visitors to smuggle in drugs for them. These guys can use the system and their visitors.

I would not use the word of someone who has been behind bars to tell how evil it is there. That would be like your child saying how evil you are for not letting them eat dessert for dinner.
 
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roymckenzie:
My friend I think you paint with too broad a brush.

I know here in California there have been abuses in our prisons. I also know here in California there were priests who were abusive. I am not equating prison and the Catholic Church in theological equality but I am using them to show where parts might be corrupt the whole is not necessarily corrupt.

The prison I visit, the California Youth Authority for kids 18 to 25 had a big scandal the other day where the video showed a guard beating a prisoner. What came out and was corroborated by 2 of the boys I visit was the youth attacked the guard then dove in front of the camera.

I have compassion for these guys and include them in my prayers every night but they do belong behind bars. These guys know how to use the system and many of them are so slick they are able to get their Christian visitors to smuggle in drugs for them. These guys can use the system and their visitors.

I would not use the word of someone who has been behind bars to tell how evil it is there. That would be like your child saying how evil you are for not letting them eat dessert for dinner.
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So…as they say in prison: “How do you tell when an inmate’s lying?..His lips are moving.”
 
One point you all seem to be overlooking is the unreliability of information obtained under torture. A person undergoing agonizing torment will say anything to make it stop.

Not only is torture immoral, but it is impractical as well.
 
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MamaGeek:
One point you all seem to be overlooking is the unreliability of information obtained under torture. A person undergoing agonizing torment will say anything to make it stop.

Not only is torture immoral, but it is impractical as well.
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You are not far off the mark. I was in army intelligence for 12 years one of my associates was an interrogator. He was a Chief Warrant Officer 4 (CW4) and spoke like 14 languages the equivalent of a college graduate in the country of those languages. The CW4 could get information out of just about anyone without torture. There are hundreds of tricks to finding out information it all depends on how much time you have.
If someone tells you that there is a bomb set to go off in 4 hours and kill 10,000 people what are the limits of what is acceptable to get the information to save those people?
What about sodium pentothal (thiopental sodium)?
 
Church Militant:
Abu Ghrab is the norm…every day…even here in the US. Nothing justifies torture. Regardless of what an enemy does we have no option according to the NT. Justice is one thing…retribution and torture another. I wish all who think it’s okay could find themselves there just for one 24 hour period. You’d change your tune.

As for “don’t do anything to get there”. That’s good advice…but everyone I know makes mistakes…what will you say when it’s your friend or son, or loved one who is being beaten up while handcuffed to his cell bars or while cuffed & shackled. My friends…there is NO excuse. Does our human vengeance and justice measure up to the character of Christ? I know mine doesn’t.
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I agree with you CM, but we are NOT Jesus, and nor do we possess His perfect tolerance.

Here is the scenario, Some bad guy has taken my son and done who knows what with him and threatens to kill him.
I catch an accomplice of this “kidnapping” who knows where my son is at[assuming I have irrefutable proof that he knows the location of my son].
I would do whatever it takes to get that information out of him to save my son from harm’s way, right, wrong, or indifferent.
Do I feel sorry for the guy who I’m torturing. NO. If he didn’t want to experaince it, he shouldn’t have “taken” someone’s child.
He[the man invovled with the crime against my son] brought these consequences on himself.
If i knew, irrefutably that that my torturing this individual would not help save my son’s life, i would not torture or kill him out of spite.
I would see to it that they rot in jail [where they will no doubt face torment and suffering].

Now I’m sure some would label me evil, or bad, or wrong, but that would not matter. All that would matter would be getting my son out of harm’s way. What is your view of this matter?

Peace of the Lord be with you!
 
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