What is torture and should we ever use it

[vern_humphrey]

Darrel:

I agree that the old torture dungeon in the classic sense is unreliable. But I also mentioned sleep and food and drugs.

In the '80s, the Army did exetensive research on fatigue and sleep deprivation – not to find effective interrogation methods, but to determine the impact on human performance.

What we found is that sleep deprivation causes hallucinations – in effect, people begin to dream while apparently wide awake. People who have been deprived of sleep will “cooperate” but with wierd and distorted stories.

The Army, much earlier, experimented with various drugs – and they have a similar effect.

Darrel:

Pain alone won’t do it, but a little or threat of it can get results. For example they might soften up a prisoner a little before questioning to create the assumption on the part of the prisoner that more will happen. Or they might use group tactics in a cell, where you have 3 guys being questioned 2 of which get beaten while being questioned but one doesn’t causing them to turn on each other.

What you’re talking about is police interrogation techniques – where the aim is to get a confession.

No one denies you can get people to confess by using pain, sleep deprivation, and drugs. And when you are holding a long sentence over a criminal’s head, he will often “roll” on his fellow criminals.

But that’s not intelligence.

Darrel:

From what I understand 20 hrs of interviewing a day over six months will generally tend to get some answers.

In the early '70s, I worked for Colonel Floyd Jame Thompson. Colonel Jim was a POW in Viet Nam for 9 years, and was an expert on resisting interrogation. To this day, I can’t talk about some of the things we researched – but haveing known a man who was tortured for years, I have little faith in torture as a method of gaining intelligence.

Darrel:

It’s more about ‘environment control’ the object is to break the mind not the body.

Minds don’t “break” like that – you don’t do damage to the mind in one area and leave it intact in other areas. While breaking the center of resistance, you also break other faculties – the same faculties you rely on to obtain intelligence.

It’s kind of like putting out a man’s eyes so he can’t escape, then expecting him to guide you through the wilderness.

Darrel:

People eventually will become what you make them if you control every stimulus long enough

.

To say that you can change people is one thing. To say that you can change them into what you want them to be is another.

Darrel:

I can imagine people hearing things like "listen man it doesn’t matter to me, we are going to be here talking every day for the rest of your life, I get paid the same either way, do you want some water? Do you think Allah is going to save you now that you have failed to become a martyr etc etc etc. Is this a picture of your mother is this your daughter…

Very similar techniques were used on Colonel Jim. At one time his wife was photographed in a restaurant with a friend, having dinner at a social function. That was printed in a newspaper, clipped by an anti-war activist, and wound up in Viet Nam. It was suddenly shoved in his face – just the sort of thing you describe.

Does it have an impact? Yes.

Does it produce reliable intelligence? No.

Darrel:

In some cases it may produce better results to treat people with charity and kindness or use a female interrogator or a muslim interrogator. Or use several all working together on different angles all monitored and recorded for analysis.

Now we’re moving in a different direction, away from torture. And in fact, there are success stories about techniques like this – but if you’re going to use this technique, torture becomes counter-productive.

Darrel:

I

Should we just not attempt to get the info and treat them with love and dignity? I would be open to that idea… but what about those hundreds of people who get killed later on by an attack that could have been prevented?

-D
When you asked that last question, you assumed that torture works, and provides reliable intelligence. It doesn’t.

As we have seen, it is counterproductive, and makes other, more effictive methods less effective.

 

[vern_humphrey]

BLB_Oregon:

I just can’t envision St. Stephen or Sts. Peter and Paul having this conversation, and they did have people hunting them down. They were martyred by people who were trying to stamp out Christianity, yet they killed no one, tortured no one. We are in nothing like the danger they were in. Why are we talking like this?.

You’re right – but can you imagine St. Stephen or Sts. Peter and Paul parachuting into Normandy or storming ashore at Iwo Jima?

Their mission was not to defend democracy against bloody tyrants, but the spread the Gospel.

That does NOT mean that no one can be expected to defend democracy. Nor does each and every citizen of the United States have to be in personal, immanent danger before we can take action in self-defense.

As I have said before Christ said if someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. He did NOT say if someone rapes and murders your wife, give him your daughter so he can do the same to her.

BLB_Oregon:

Incarceration of criminals is appropriate, but torture is not.

You are absolutely right. Torture of criminals is inappropriate because it is inhumane, and because it produces forced confessions – which are not true indications of guilt.

Torture of terrorists is wrong because it is inhumane and does not produce reliable intelligence.

So torture is wrong per se, and also is not justified by producing any useful result.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

vern humphrey:

…you assumed that torture works, and provides reliable intelligence. It doesn’t.

As we have seen, it is counterproductive, and makes other, more effictive methods less effective.

Your post is excellent. As one gets older, there will still always be questions needing discernment, but it never fails that God’s way works and our ways of getting around God’s ways don’t. Maybe once we get old enough to look back and see that our own parents weren’t trying to ruin our fun by giving us rules, we can believe that maybe God knows what He’s doing, too.

 

[Shoshana]

BLB_Oregon:

Your post is excellent. As one gets older, there will still always be questions needing discernment, but it never fails that God’s way works and our ways of getting around God’s ways don’t. Maybe once we get old enough to look back and see that our own parents weren’t trying to ruin our fun by giving us rules, we can believe that maybe God knows what He’s doing, too.

BLB,
You are truly an inspiration to me…may the Lord bless and keep you… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_209.gif

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Lisa_N]

If sleep deprivation, drugs and other interrogation methods don’t work, how about a reward system? IOW the person basically gets bare bones treatment and no contact with others. If he provides information that proves credible, he gets a reward—contact with others, better food, whatever.

I was thinking about this based on a friend who told me about her treatment for anorexia nervosa. She was basically put in a room with ‘pajamas’, no stimulation in the form of books, radio, TV. If she wanted something she had to eat. Eat a meal, get a book or get the radio for an hour. Then back to your cell and it was a cell. Eat again and get another reward, time in a community room, phone calls, makeup, etc. She said it cured her in short order. Maybe it sounds a bit cruel but it beats dying.

Lisa N

 

[vern_humphrey]

Lisa N:

If sleep deprivation, drugs and other interrogation methods don’t work, how about a reward system? IOW the person basically gets bare bones treatment and no contact with others. If he provides information that proves credible, he gets a reward—contact with others, better food, whatever.

I was thinking about this based on a friend who told me about her treatment for anorexia nervosa. She was basically put in a room with ‘pajamas’, no stimulation in the form of books, radio, TV. If she wanted something she had to eat. Eat a meal, get a book or get the radio for an hour. Then back to your cell and it was a cell. Eat again and get another reward, time in a community room, phone calls, makeup, etc. She said it cured her in short order. Maybe it sounds a bit cruel but it beats dying.

Lisa N

Sure – of course that’s NOT torture. When you start looking for methods of gaining intelligence that WORK, you quickly move AWAY from tortue.

Humane approaches are aimed at gaining cooperation – and they have a trememdous advantage – we don’t know what the detainee knows. Only he knows that. If he begins to cooperate, he can tell us thing we never dreamed we could get from him.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

vern humphrey:

You’re right – but can you imagine St. Stephen or Sts. Peter and Paul parachuting into Normandy or storming ashore at Iwo Jima?

Their mission was not to defend democracy against bloody tyrants, but the spread the Gospel.

Actually, yes, I can imagine Sts. Peter and Paul, in particular, storming Iwo Jima. We know from the Gospels that St. Peter, at least, knew what it was to draw blood with a sword. One does have to wonder if the servant’s ear was what he was aiming for, but that is not the point.

As for us, we are not all preachers, but none of us has a mission that supercedes living the Gospel.

 

[Shoshana]

BLB_Oregon:

Actually, yes, I can imagine Sts. Peter and Paul, in particular, storming Iwo Jima. We know from the Gospels that St. Peter, at least, knew what it was to draw blood with a sword. One does have to wonder if the servant’s ear was what he was aiming for, but that is not the point.

As for us, we are not all preachers, but none of us has a mission that supercedes living the Gospel.

We must not forget the many missionaries who tried the evanglize the pagans…eg the Jesuits who many died amongst them in many, many countries. And the torture was horrendous…as only barbarians can do. But many of these people were not civilized and there is no comparison between what happened then and now. Now…we are suposed to be civilized…Democracy never crossed their mouth… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Exporter]

Do you think General G.S. Patton would have gone easy on an OSS man who had valuable information if he could save 5,000 of his own men by wrentching out the info? Remember he doesn’t have all day.

The qquestion that has not been asked here but has been asked other places is this:
Alkaida has placed an atomic weapon in Manthatten, the CIA catches one of the enemy. They believe thay have 4 hours before the clock detonates the atomic bomb. If it goes off 100,000 people will die and trillions of dollars damage will occur.

What do you do?

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Exporter:

Do you think General G.S. Patton would have gone easy on an OSS man who had valuable information if he could save 5,000 of his own men by wrentching out the info? Remember he doesn’t have all day.

The qquestion that has not been asked here but has been asked other places is this:
Alkaida has placed an atomic weapon in Manthatten, the CIA catches one of the enemy. They believe thay have 4 hours before the clock detonates the atomic bomb. If it goes off 100,000 people will die and trillions of dollars damage will occur.

What do you do?

You have to remain faithful to the Gospel… even at West Point, Christians don’t wear little bracelets to ask themselves, “What would Patton do?”

Your question has been answered here:
a) your core values aren’t values if you throw in your cards when the pots gets too rich and
b) It is not likely that torture would lead to success in getting that information. It probably wouldn’t work

It might make the torturers feel a little less helpless than they actually were, but that is hardly an excuse.

 

[Darrel]

I think that there may have been some advances since the 80’s or Vietnam. I also think that military studies on sleep deprivation and its impact on a foot soldier being compared to interrogation techniques are like comparing apples and oranges.

I have a strong ‘hunch’ that the government has experts that only do this sort of thing, and they must know exactly what they are doing as experts. There may be techniques we are totally not aware of being used.

I am against torture so please don’t assume that just because I say it works that I endorse it. My definition is perhaps off in regards to the way I lump all information extraction techniques into torture (be it physical or mental) I seriously asked the question “what do we do with these people?” in an attempt to seek answers to the question. I will say that anyone who can endorse the use of torture should be willing to carry it out themselves as a Christian or they shouldn’t endorse it.

I for one can think of very few scenarios in my imagination that I could perform such an act in. It’s like walking into a nightmare to even consider doing things like that to one of Gods children.

With regards to the scenario mentioned with the 4 hours to find an atomic weapon in a city. I would personally inject the guy with Sodium Penathol (or some new drug) and ask him the questions to help prevent the deaths of a million children and x million adults.

If the drugs didn’t work I would let the bomb detonate.

-D

 

[Timidity]

This is one of those things where person opinion doesn’t matter, because the Church has a clear position on the subject:

Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity.

 

[Lisa_N]

Timidity:

This is one of those things where person opinion doesn’t matter, because the Church has a clear position on the subject:

Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity.

Sure but again the issue remains, what is torture? So far some people think sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, isolation, loud music, lengthy interrogations are torture. I am not sure that such things mean torture according to the church. Now I am not fan of rap music but it’s neither physical nor moral violence…heck people even buy the stuff.

IOW no one has come up with a definition of what constitutes torture for the Church. However I defer to people like Vern who claim that even if sleep deprivation isn’t torture, it doesn’t provide accurate info.

Lisa N

 

[FranL]

I read an article in a news magazine sometime in the past concerning the “brainwashing” techniques used in North Korean prison camps during the Korean war.

Their use of sleep deprivation and loud blaring music and constant bombardment with communist indoctrination propaganda on large groups of prisoners produced startling results.

They produced the largest number of defectors from the ranks of allied prisoner ever to occur in any war prior to and up until the time of the article.

These men simply gave up their homes and families and became 100% volunteer collaborators with the enemy. They not only cooperated totally with their interrogators during the war but chose to remain in North Korea as citizens for the remainder of their lives.

From what I read, very little “hands on” torture was involved. though there was the constant threat of it.
If this is true, I think people who say that torture doesn’t work need to do their homework.

If you think that there is no one in intelligence that evaluates the quality of the intelligence gathered from all methods and determines the relative success of various methods then you are mistaken. They don’t keep using the techniques they do because they can’t think of anything else to do. And you are being arrogant to think you are smarter than they.

Sincerely,

• FranL

 

[vern_humphrey]

Darrel:

I think that there may have been some advances since the 80’s or Vietnam. I also think that military studies on sleep deprivation and its impact on a foot soldier being compared to interrogation techniques are like comparing apples and oranges.

How so? Is the memory of one of our men fundamtally from the memories of other men?

People who have been deprived of sleep “remember” things that never happened – and are convinced they DID happen.

Darrel:

I have a strong ‘hunch’ that the government has experts that only do this sort of thing, and they must know exactly what they are doing as experts. There may be techniques we are totally not aware of being used.

The experts do not use torture. They know that torture is counter-productive.

Darrel:

I am against torture so please don’t assume that just because I say it works that I endorse it.

You have no evidence that it does work – none at all.

Yet when people who HAVE interrogated prisoners of war (as I have) and who have worked with men who were tortured (as I have) say it doesn’t work, you persist in saying it does.

It’s difficult to interpret that sort of persistance as anything other than an endorsement.

Darrel:

My definition is perhaps off in regards to the way I lump all information extraction techniques into torture (be it physical or mental) I seriously asked the question “what do we do with these people?” in an attempt to seek answers to the question.

You said earlier:

Darrel:

I have a strong ‘hunch’ that the government has experts that only do this sort of thing, and they must know exactly what they are doing as experts. There may be techniques we are totally not aware of being used.

Let them deal with the problem. We DO have experts, they DO have techniques. And those techniques do NOT involve torture.

Darrel:

I will say that anyone who can endorse the use of torture should be willing to carry it out themselves as a Christian or they shouldn’t endorse it.

They shouldn’t endorse it, period. It is morally reprehensible and it doesn’t work.

Darrel:

I for one can think of very few scenarios in my imagination that I could perform such an act in. It’s like walking into a nightmare to even consider doing things like that to one of Gods children…

I suggest you stop thinking of those “very few scenarios” and examine your motives for thinking of them in the first place.

 

[Darrel]

How so? Is the memory of one of our men fundamtally from the memories of other men?

Again apples and oranges because they were looking at a soldiers performance under total lack of sleep. Using sleep deprivation in this instance would be measured.

People who have been deprived of sleep “remember” things that never happened – and are convinced they DID happen.

Yes that’s fine but it’s not like I’m saying that this done in combination with nothing else. You seem to be stuck on a lot of definitions and singularities.

The experts do not use torture. They know that torture is counter-productive

I know that, again my definition may be off I was lumping it all into one thing. Pain, pleasure, sleep, drugs, music … whatever.

To me it is all the same thing as I don’t have a military manual in front of me with a glossary of terms.
You have no evidence that it does work – none at all.

Yet when people who HAVE interrogated prisoners of war (as I have) and who have worked with men who were tortured (as I have) say it doesn’t work, you persist in saying it does.

Yes I do, but then again you did mention that some ‘techniques’ did work. Again I don’t have a glossary of terms in front of me. To me it is all same sick thing I seriously don’t care what the definition is in the US military.

It’s difficult to interpret that sort of persistence as anything other than an endorsement.

I think this statement is a totally unrealistic and judgmental assumption. I do not endorse torture and my statements do not make it difficult to interpret anything, I made it quite clear from my first post that torture is evil and wrong.

Let them deal with the problem. We DO have experts, they DO have techniques. And those techniques do NOT involve torture

OK! lol.

They shouldn’t endorse it, period. It is morally reprehensible and it doesn’t work.

I agree
I suggest you stop thinking of those “very few scenarios” and examine your motives for thinking of them in the first place.

Why? Am I sinning if I say to myself hmmmm what in this world could ever happen to make me treat one of Gods creatures like that? There was a scenario mentioned before about the atomic weapon in a city. There are many scenarios that one could consider that are much more difficult.

It’s not uncommon for people to think of such things as moral dilemmas and figure out within themselves how they would handle a situation. The fact is that I have never tortured anyone and I never will. As far as I’m concerned my motives are sound. I suggest you stop assuming you know my motives. This sort of constant post dissection is counter productive to the discussion.

Once again just for clarity, all techniques you consider to be the ones that actually work I was calling torture. I don’t endorse your definitions, I am not a military expert on this subject, nor would I wish to be. I still think torture works, and any forced will upon another be it happy or nightmarish to extract information equates to the same sick thing an invasion upon another person forcing them to say that which they wished to remain secret upon capture.

-D

 

[TheGarg]

BLB_Oregon:

We are in nothing like the danger they were in. Why are we talking like this?

Really, we are in no danger of being hunted down and killed for our beliefs? I bet the people in the towers that were attacked on 9/11/2001 would differ with your opinion.

Peace of the Lord be with you

 

[TheGarg]

Darrel:

With regards to the scenario mentioned with the 4 hours to find an atomic weapon in a city. I would personally inject the guy with Sodium Penathol (or some new drug) and ask him the questions to help prevent the deaths of a million children and x million adults.

If the drugs didn’t work I would let the bomb detonate.

-D

I would put him such agonizing pain, and promise him relief not only when he tells us the local of the bomb, but when that info has been verified, and the bomb disposed of or moved to a save local for detonation…just so he would now that the pain wouldn’t end until the bomb is disarmed or blows up, and if were still alive after the bomb blows up, the pain wouldn’t end…

if your gonna pluck a turkey you might as well put it in the oven and cook it till its done…

If you want mercy, then dont plant bombs that will kill 100,000 innocent people…

grrr…bad me…baaaad dogggy

 

[vern_humphrey]

Darrel:

Again apples and oranges because they were looking at a soldiers performance under total lack of sleep. Using sleep deprivation in this instance would be measured.

Measured, how?

Our experience is that people continue to work under sleep deprivation conditions, so that the point were a person becomes vulnerable and cooperative occurs long after the hallucinations start.

Darrel:

Yes that’s fine but it’s not like I’m saying that this done in combination with nothing else. You seem to be stuck on a lot of definitions and singularities.

My position is based on actual experience interrogating prisoners of war, as well as working with former POWs who were tortured.

Darrel:

I know that, again my definition may be off I was lumping it all into one thing. Pain, pleasure, sleep, drugs, music … whatever.

To me it is all the same thing as I don’t have a military manual in front of me with a glossary of terms.

You don’t have any experience, either.

To seek to justify things like torture is unCatholic and irresponsible.

Darrel:

Yes I do, but then again you did mention that some ‘techniques’ did work. Again I don’t have a glossary of terms in front of me. To me it is all same sick thing I seriously don’t care what the definition is in the

US military.

The techniques that work are the same ones that work in normal human interactions – establishing rapport with the subject, providing little comforts, and being patient.

Darrel:

I think this statement is a totally unrealistic and judgmental assumption. I do not endorse torture and my statements do not make it difficult to interpret anything, I made it quite clear from my first post that torture is evil and wrong.

You said, in this post, “Using sleep deprivation in this instance would be measured.”

That looks like more than an endorsement to me – it looks like suggesting techniques.

Darrel:

I agree

And that should be as far as we have to go. Torture is morally reprehensible, and it doesn’t work.

Darrel:

Why? Am I sinning if I say to myself hmmmm what in this world could ever happen to make me treat one of Gods creatures like that?

Are you sinning if you fantacize about enjoying another man’s wife?

Fantasies about torture are just as sinful.

Darrel:

There was a scenario mentioned before about the atomic weapon in a city. There are many scenarios that one could consider that are much more difficult.

Again, creating scenarios where you commit a sin are a sin in themselves.

Darrel:

It’s not uncommon for people to think of such things as moral dilemmas and figure out within themselves how they would handle a situation…

Since we are (or should by now be) agreed that torture doesn’t work and is morally impermissible, why continue to fantacize about it?

Darrel:

The fact is that I have never tortured anyone and I never will. As far as I’m concerned my motives are sound. I suggest you stop assuming you know my motives. This sort of constant post dissection is counter productive to the discussion…

You said, in this post, “To me it is all same sick thing I seriously don’t care what the definition is in the US military.”

You have falsely decided in your own mind that the US military uses torture as a matter of doctrine. So who is ascribing what to whom?

Darrel:

Once again just for clarity, all techniques you consider to be the ones that actually work I was calling torture. I don’t endorse your definitions, I am not a military expert on this subject, nor would I wish to be.

Giving someone a cigarette or a cup of coffee is torture? Establishing rapport with a prisoner is torture?

Darrel:

I still think torture works, and any forced will upon another be it happy or nightmarish to extract information equates to the same sick thing an invasion upon another person forcing them to say that which they wished to remain secret upon capture.

That, by definition, is an endorsement for torture – because by saying it works, you offer a justification for it.

 

[Darrel]

Ok Vern,

So now a moral dilemma and ethics scenario is a fantasy to be compared to fantasies about other people’s wives?

I get the feeling that perhaps you’re trying to straighten out some kid that thinks he knows something he does not. I will say that I am well past my twenties and yes I wear a uniform to work every day.

I also know people who have been in the military in Vietnam along with people who have served in war in a Special Forces capacity. I agree that straight up torture is not effective. I could just as easily claim that by you saying that certain ‘techniques’ work that you endorse torture.

It’s important not to get personal in these discussions or they will often tend to deteriorate. Can we agree on that? Let’s keep this civil and let the Lord be the judge of each person’s heart. I’m very confident he realizes that I don’t run around dreaming of other men’s wives and that I do not have sick fantasies about torture.

This is an open talk on what is possible in the area of information extraction and its moral implications. Such a conversation requires tact to be a productive topic.

-D