What is torture and should we ever use it

[vern_humphrey]

Darrel:

So now a moral dilemma and ethics scenario is a fantasy to be compared to fantasies about other people’s wives?

When you keep coming back and inventing one “scenario” after another – yeah. I’d say so.

Darrel:

I also know people who have been in the military in

Vietnam along with people who have served in war in a Special Forces capacity. I agree that straight up torture is not effective. I could just as easily claim that by you saying that certain ‘techniques’ work that you endorse torture.

Which “techniques” that I have mentioned would you call torture?

 

[BLB_Oregon]

TheGarg:

Really, we are in no danger of being hunted down and killed for our beliefs? I bet the people in the towers that were attacked on 9/11/2001 would differ with your opinion.

Peace of the Lord be with you

“Nothing like the danger” does not mean “no danger.”
And no, we aren’t literally having to go underground to celebrate Mass. My point is that we are not in worse straits than the early Church, either as a Church or as a society, so we should not try to rationalize that we have the excuse of a desire to survive as a reason to condone gravely immoral behavior.

The position of the Church is clear. We can’t betray the faith to save it. We can’t give in to despair and then pretend we have not given in. The Psalms are full of laments by those who wondered if God will save the righteous from those who seek their lives, but they never advocate giving in and abandoning the faith or God’s commandments. This situation has been faced by those who have followed God in every generation. We shouldn’t start imagining that we are any different.

 

[Shoshana]

“Nothing like the danger” does not mean “no danger.”
And no, we aren’t literally having to go underground to celebrate Mass. My point is that we are not in worse straits than the early Church, either as a Church or as a society, so we should not try to rationalize that we have the excuse of a desire to survive as a reason to condone gravely immoral behavior.

The position of the Church is clear. We can’t betray the faith to save it. We can’t give in to despair and then pretend we have not given in. The Psalms are full of laments by those who wondered if God will save the righteous from those who seek their lives, but they never advocate giving in and abandoning the faith or God’s commandments. This situation has been faced by those who have followed God in every generation. We shouldn’t start imagining that we are any different.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_1.gif

 

[Darrel]

When you keep coming back and inventing one “scenario” after another – yeah. I’d say so.

I replied to another persons scenario vern I have posted none myself. In fact just yesterday I was discussing a scenario with a great Catholic friend of mine and the conversation hinged around ‘what would Christ want us to do’ in such a case. In my opinion it is prudent in regards to incident management to discuss worse case scenarios from time to time in preparing for them if God forbid they ever do come. Discussion does not = fantasy.

Which “techniques” that I have mentioned would you call torture?

Let’s split a few hairs,

If a person is captured in war it is safe to assume that they do not wish to betray there cause. (usualy)

If we then use kindness and tactics of coercion for the purposes of manipulation to achieve our objective with regards to information extraction does this betray the dignity of the captive? Does this betrayal of dignity not equate to sin?

So in other words we know that this person does not wish to talk. We then manipulate them into changing there minds with kindness. We have still invaded there person using deception tactics much like the devil would do in a brilliant temptation.

If we wish to protect the dignity of a wartime captive and not sin we should simply ask them for there name rank and serial number and then provide them with reasonable accommodations in captivity with no further questions.

Any way you slice it once you extract the information by any means imaginable it may result in that captive’s fellow countrymen being killed which he/she no doubt would not wish to happen upon capture.

The captive would then have to live with the shame of being manipulated into betrayal of there cause. Again I must say that the definition of torture is any invasion of another person causing them to say that which they wish to remain secret upon capture.

I personally would feel better about myself if I broke under torture than I would if I were sweet talked into the betrayal of the United States.

-D

 

[Church_Militant]

TheGarg:

Really, we are in no danger of being hunted down and killed for our beliefs? I bet the people in the towers that were attacked on 9/11/2001 would differ with your opinion.

Peace of the Lord be with you

And can any of us see the early church fathers, who **were indeed **hunted down and killed for their beliefs tormenting a person to get some kind of information in order to secure the safety of the other believers?

The Twin Towers attack had nothing to do with our faith… It had everything to do with the politcs and foreign policy of our country. Confusing these two is a very bad idea Brothers and Sisters.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Torture is vile and can never be justified, so that is why the U.S. Army uses accepted methods of interrogation, to avoid the use of torture; please read:

US Army Field Manual

FM-34-52 INTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION

FM-3-05.301 PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS TACTICS

FM-3-05.102 ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES INTELLIGENCE

Please read this article:

city-journal.org/html/15-1-terrorists.html

and pray for Spc. Charles Graner, who was convicted for doing the job he was instructed to do, and being railroaded by the Army as a scapegoat on the pagan altar of international journalistic sensationalism.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Darrel:

Discussion does not = fantasy.

There is a point at which it does equal fantasy. That point comes when someone begins discussing wilder and more unlikely scenarios that all tend toward a justification for an immoral act.

Darrel:
If a person is captured in war it is safe to assume that they do not wish to betray there cause. (usualy)

If we then use kindness and tactics of coercion for the purposes of manipulation to achieve our objective with regards to information extraction does this betray the dignity of the captive? Does this betrayal of dignity not equate to sin?

No, establishing rapport is not torture nor is it sin. If you hold that it is, then you must also hold that persuading a Protestant to convert to Catholicism is also a sin.

Being fair and decent and winning people over is not sinful.

You’re making my point about fantasy. By erecting this structure of sophistry, you are continuing the argument that torture is somehow the norm and justifiable.

 

[FranL]

Vern,

Maybe you weren’t very good at it? Your use of past tense indicates you are no longer involved in this field. Maybe it’s because you weren’t well suited to the work involved?
(Please don’t take that as a criticism, if it is true it would be to your credit.)

I have just as much proof that torture works as you have presented to the opposite. That is, written opinions of equally qualified persons that refute your opinion.

What this argument seems to be about is whether or not your opinion of what is morally acceptable can justify your inaction when your action could have saved lives.

I have read repeatedly of information being retrieved via torture that has saved the lives of men in wartime. Apparently the information was reliable enough to change the outcome of events.
Would the torturers have been justified in allowing the deaths of men because they felt that the actions they needed to engage in to save these lives were immoral?

I believe that each good man must do what he believes is right in the circumstances he finds himself in. None of us can baby-sit all of our brothers, all of their lives. We will all find ourselves left alone with our consciences many time in our lives.

The question posed above is a difficult one for me to answer on a universal basis. I could neither condemn a man who chose to perform the torture or the one who didn’t and let other men die by his inaction. I don’t know what I would decide to do under the conditions of a specific moment like that and could only advise another to do what you feel you can do in good conscience and pray to God that you obeyed His will in the matter.

As far as definitions go, anytime you apply unnatural stress to the body or mind of another for the purpose of altering their thoughts or behavior, that’s torture in my book. Deliberate use of sleep deprivation to that end is torture. The same for the constant use of mind numbing levels of background noise or threats of physical punishment.

God bless,

• FranL:tiphat:

 

[vern_humphrey]

FranL:

Vern,

Maybe you weren’t very good at it? Your use of past tense indicates you are no longer involved in this field. Maybe it’s because you weren’t well suited to the work involved?
(Please don’t take that as a criticism, if it is true it would be to your credit.)

I was very good at interrogation. I got proveable results – intelligence that was used very effectively.

By the same token, the people who tortured Colonel Jim Thompson and other American POWs were pretty good (they had 9 years to practice on Colonel Jim) and didn’t get much.

FranL:

I have just as much proof that torture works as you have presented to the opposite. That is, written opinions of equally qualified persons that refute your opinion.

Feel free to post them here.

FranL:

What this argument seems to be about is whether or not your opinion of what is morally acceptable can justify your inaction when your action could have saved lives…

A pointless argument, since torture isn’t effective at gaining intelligence. Torture is good (if you can use that term in this context) at getting confessions. You could torture a man into saying or signing anything you chose – but it wouldn’t be reliable information.

Now, by making the argument that torture “works” you advance the position that there can be a point where it is morally acceptable. And people who have used torture and degrading treatment on prisoners have used just that argument.

Which is why I say, accept the truth. It doesn’t work and fanticizing and speculating about it doesn’t help.

FranL:

I have read repeatedly of information being retrieved via torture that has saved the lives of men in wartime. Apparently the information was reliable enough to change the outcome of events…

I have read that life on earth was planted by space aliens – but that doesn’t make it true.

Feel free to post something to support that – but look at your sources. Was the author present when the torture was administered, or is this just hear-say?

FranL:

Would the torturers have been justified in allowing the deaths of men because they felt that the actions they needed to engage in to save these lives were immoral?

Since isn’t true, all this speculation does is raise the argument that you are making in the above passage – that it MAY BE morally acceptable to torture people.

FranL:

As far as definitions go, anytime you apply unnatural stress to the body or mind of another for the purpose of altering their thoughts or behavior, that’s torture in my book.

So requiring Catholics to examine their consciences and go to confession for the purpose of amending their thoughts or behavior for the better is torture?

FranL:

Deliberate use of sleep deprivation to that end is torture. The same for the constant use of mind numbing levels of background noise or threats of physical punishment.

God bless,

• FranL:tiphat:

And as I pointed out, these things don’t work.

 

[Darrel]

No, establishing rapport is not torture nor is it sin. If you hold that it is, then you must also hold that persuading a Protestant to convert to Catholicism is also a sin.

hehe,

If I am a prisoner of war under your care as my interrogator and I say this is my name rank and serial number and I wish to longer speak to you is it correct to deny me that right?

If I say to an unbeliever I think you should become a person who loves Christ through the Catholic Church and they say leave me alone I will certainly leave them alone. Comparing interrogation to evangelization is absurd. Once again Vern it’s apples and oranges.

If you even force a person to remain in a room for questioning that doesn’t wish to be there it’s is a smack in there dignity and they have no rights to refuse questioning. If I get arrested the first thing I will hear from a law enforcement official is … you have the right to remain silent. Does a prisoner of war have the right to remain silent and the right to be left alone if he/she would like? In my opinion if the answer is no then that is where the sin begins. I don’t care if it’s common practice or not, be it military or law enforcement.
Being fair and decent and winning people over is not sinful.

You’re making my point about fantasy. By erecting this structure of sophistry, you are continuing the argument that torture is somehow the norm and justifiable.

You consider it possible to truly win a person over after they have been made a prisoner of war? There a captive prisoner they are not going to be your true buddy as if it were some situation in free society. It all comes down to fantasy to say that you’re winning over a prisoner’s heart. You are simply doing your job and accomplishing your military objective. Is it even correct to view a child of God as an objective with information extraction? In reading love and responsibility from the Pope I would say that is using a person as a means to your ends. The whole thing is a dirty job lets not sugar coat it lets call it what it is.

I am shocked that you are still saying that I am justifying torture and having some twisted fantasy about it. I make no bones about saying it’s wrong to torture people. Yet you persist in this fantasy that I endorse it.

-D

 

[TheGarg]

Church Militant:

And can any of us see the early church fathers, who **were indeed **hunted down and killed for their beliefs tormenting a person to get some kind of information in order to secure the safety of the other believers?

NO,not for thier own safety, but they were never in the position of saving 100,000 people from an atomic bomb, som we can’t know what they would have done, although, im sure they would have had more restraint than I would have.
Church Militant:
The Twin Towers attack had nothing to do with our faith… It had everything to do with the politcs and foreign policy of our country. Confusing these two is a very bad idea Brothers and Sisters.

To say that it had “nothing” to do with our faith, is untrue. IF we were practising the same faction of Islam Extreme that OBL is, then we wouldn’t have got attacked.

Im not saying that the whole reason we were attacked was our beliefs, but it is part of the equation, IMHO.

 

[abcdefg]

Are corporal punishments (typically flogging) in Islamic countries(Iran etc) and southeast asia(singapore, malaysia etc) considered torture?

 

[TheGarg]

abcdefg:

Are corporal punishments (typically flogging) in Islamic countries(Iran etc) and southeast asia(singapore, malaysia etc) considered torture?

I would consider them punishment, and I would like to see them instituted here.
When that college student got caned in china for stealing a pair of sunglasses, i thought that was great…little bastard, he got what he deserved…
moral is, if you dont like the punishment, dont do the crime

 

[Traditional_Ang]

FranL:

Sleep deprivation and loud tasteless music? That was my last job! There are people working in factories, well known manufacturers, here in the US, that work under conditions that fit the description of the torture at Gitmo. And they’re happy to have the jobs.

Abu Grhab? As a nerd boy in grade school I received worse treatment than that at the hands of my fellow students! And it was a Catholic school!
Is there some kind of aid program I can sign up for as a victim of torture?

In my hippy days I wound up in prison twice. One of the jails was a filthy rat hole the other was actually quite nice, I could live there. I was never abused by the guards. My personal experience is that it is not the norm. Though I was in fear of my life from the inmates in that rat hole in Mississippi.

I apologize if I sound sarcastic. I don’t think Abu Grhab was justified any more than the kids who tortured me in grade school where. But this stuff constitutes a low grade fever and a mild sore throat even compared to the normal lives of many people I know and others I read about. People who don’t think they’re doing too bad in life.

When you compare it to beheadings, dismemberment, burns and electrocution, stuff that others have used and we have so far refrained from using, it’s pretty weak.

For people to carry on the way they do about the isolated incidents of American abuses compared to the gross excesses of others indicates to me a deliberate attempt to undermine our people for reasons that are less than noble.

I’m sorry. I can’t see it any other way.

• FranL

Fran:

I tend to agree. I’ve seen what our enemies have done with those they’ve captured, sawing their heads off while screaming, “Alahu Akbar!” One of the people they slaughtered in this fashion was a female aid worker who was guilty of trying to feed other Iraqis and make their lives a little easier. Even, Al-Jazeera, which had enthusiastically telecast the slaughter of numerous male workers, couldn’t bring themselves to show her murder.

At Beslan, in Russia, they tortured the CHILDREN, while depriving them of food, water and use of the bathroom, for 3 days. When one of the Chechan “Black Widows” expressed sympathy for the CHILDREN, the Saudi who was heading “the operation”, “The Kolonel”, blew her up by remote control.

When the terrorists decided it was time to end the standoff, they blew up a bunch of shrapnel laden explossives they had plad around a large group of wounded people, turning them into “hamburger meat” (the description given by vomiting Russian Army soldiers).

Once you understand what they want and what they’ll do to get it, you’ll understand that nothing we could do short of CONVERSION TO WAHABBIST ISLAM, would stop them from slaughtering people like I described above, or driving planes into our buildings, or bombing our cafes, or our schools (which are woefully unprepared), or our malls, or any other places INNOCENT PEOPLE gather.

Fran, you’ll notice I didn’t refer to the Israeli experience, because of the fact that so many in the West now defend this when it’s done on behalf Palestinians against Jews. I wanted to make sure I didn’t ignite that here.

I might have to live with the fact that I said it was OK to made a murderous thug uncomfortable in order to save the LIVES OF THE INNOCENT, but I never want someone to have to live with the fact that they could not use all the tools available to SAVE THOSE INNOCENT LIVES when they had the chance! I don’t think anyone should ever have never have to look into the eyes of THE LOVED ONES slaughtered by the friends of some murderous thug they couldn’t harrass for the information that would have saved THOSE LOVED ONES’ LIVES!

I don’t want to live with those lives on my conscience, and I don’t want decent people to have to live with that on their consciences, either.

I could be wrong. But, since 9/11/2001, we are at war against people who deliberately slaughter the INNOCENT.

Michael

 

[abcdefg]

TheGarg:

When that college student got caned in china for stealing a pair of sunglasses, i thought that was great…little bastard, he got what he deserved…

just stealing a pair of sunglasses isn’t punishable by law in China and flogging isn’t a legal punishment. must be done by some mobs.

 

[Darrel]

abcdefg:

just stealing a pair of sunglasses isn’t punishable by law in China and flogging isn’t a legal punishment. must be done by some mobs.

I think that happened in Singapore if I’m not mistaken. I also hear it’s a lot worse than one would think I guess it causes deep laceration which is totaly sick. Effective yes… sick yes.

-D

 

[Traditional_Ang]

“Nothing like the danger” does not mean “no danger.”
And no, we aren’t literally having to go underground to celebrate Mass. My point is that we are not in worse straits than the early Church, either as a Church or as a society, so we should not try to rationalize that we have the excuse of a desire to survive as a reason to condone gravely immoral behavior.

Oregon, I don’t think anyone is suggesting using means such as THE RACK, or THE STRAPPADO, or THE IRON MAIDEN, all of which were condoned and COMMANDED BY HOLY MOTHER CHURCH at one time!

But they are suggesting means sufficient to acquire information from REALLY EVIL MEN, Islamist Fascist Terrorists, who would love to nothing better than to slaughter you just like some of them did an Egyptian Coptic Christian IN AMERICA just yesterday! They would dearly love to slaughter you like the did THEO VAN GOGH last month IN AMSTERDAM! They would dearly love to slaughter your children like they did ALL of those RUSSIAN CHILDREN in BESLAN in SEPTEMBER! They would dearly love to SLAUGHTER US and ENSLAVE our CHILDREN like they’ve done in SOUTHERN SUDAN!

I could go on, and on, but I hope you’ve got the idea.

I can LINK YOU TO DEATH on this, or you can accept that these Islamist Fascist Terrorists want to pull our society down around our ears, form EURABIA and a GIANT KALIFATE, and destroy Western Civilization for good!

BLB_Oregon:

The position of the Church is clear. We can’t betray the faith to save it. We can’t give in to despair and then pretend we have not given in. The Psalms are full of laments by those who wondered if God will save the righteous from those who seek their lives, but they never advocate giving in and abandoning the faith or God’s commandments. This situation has been faced by those who have followed God in every generation. We shouldn’t start imagining that we are any different.

Previous generations haven’t faced an enemy completely prepared to DIE in order to take their lives and those of their enemy’s CHILDREN!

Previous generations haven’t faced people who glorified this and called it a RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION!

Previous generations haven’t faced a situation where those people could get their hands on nuclear weapons, and, thereby, take the lives of millions of INNOCENT men, WOMEN & CHILDREN!

I don’t know what I can do to get you to see the absolute moral difference between these Islamist Fascist Terrorists and those who are defending the INNOCENTS against them, and why making some of these terrorists uncomfortable might be necessary to SAVE the lives of those INNOCENTS that you seem to be ready to allow to die at the hands of the Islamist Fascist Terrorists!

Now, do you understand?

Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

It seems that this discussion is being held in a vacuum for some here. So, excuse me while I provide some context.

I advise anyone with any doubts as to the magnitude of the evil we face to read ALL of those LINKS in their ENTIRETY!

THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE (Explanation of the Third Great Jihad) by Larry Abraham
globalspecops.com/clash.html

Dhimmitude Past and Present :Ê An Invented or Real History? - BAT YE’OR
dhimmitude.org/archive/by_lecture_10oct2002.htm

Christians in Islamic Countries
by Giuseppe De Rosa S.I.
213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,41931,00.html

Srinandan Vyas
Hindu Kush means Hindu Slaughter
swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/miscarticles/hkmhs.html

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

Mujahid Usamah Bin Ladin Talks Exclusively to “NIDA’UL ISLAM” About The New Powder Keg in the Middle East
islam.org.au/articles/15/LADIN.HTM

Jihad - The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in the Quran byÊAyatullah Morteza Mutahhari
al-islam.org/short/jihad/

Khalifah.com…Then there will be Khalifah Rashidah in the method of Prophethood.
khilafah.com/home/

Declaration of 'Ulam on the Gold Dinar - A Group of ‘Ulama ÐÊat the 4th Muslim Lawyers’ Conference
islamidag.dk/ulamaongold.html

QuranÕs Teachings: Find out what is the inspiration behind the hate and violence in Islamic terrorism?
faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and Islam - A comparison with the Quran and the Sunna
geocities.com/koraninfo/rights.htm

**MALAYSIAN PM MAHATHIR URGES MUSLIMS AT CONFERENCE - by ROHAN SULLIVAN/ MAHATHIR MOHAMMAD **
almuajaha.com/newswire/display/1164/index.php

Kristallnacht in Kosovo - The burning of churches raises questions about independence.
By Damjan de Krnjevic-Miskovic
nationalreview.com/comment/krnjevicmiskovic200403190842.asp

History points finger at revenge for lost Moor kingdom By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 13/03/2004)
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/13/wbusy213.xml

Identification of the Prophesied Imam Mahdi
irshad.org/islam/prophecy/mahdi.htm

Twenty-first Century African Slaves Ð In the Land of Islam by Sandro Magister
213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,42015,00.html

VIA NEWS: Sudan
viamission.org/news/nations/sudan.htm

Dhimmi Victims Gallery
dhimmi.com/victimsgallery.htm

Copts.com
copts.com/

Mass rape atrocity in west Sudan
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3549325.stm

SUDANESE SLAVE ‘CRUCIFIED’ BY HIS MASTER NOT UNUSUAL IN CENTRAL AFRICAN NATION
assistnews.net/Stories/s04110038.htm

Girl, 16, hanged in public in Iran
iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=80

SAUDI ARABIA : SAUDI ARABIA JAILS INDIAN NATIONAL
compassdirect.org/en/lead.php?idelement=173
thegreatseparation.com/newsfront/2004/10/brian_oconnors_.html

The Forgotten Christians of Lebanon
Once free and equal, Lebanon’s Christians now struggle against tremendous odds in a country dominated by Syrian politics and an increasingly Islamized culture.
lebanese-forces.org/media/articles/malek/forgotten.htm

That should just about do it. I really do advise anyone who wants to try to accommodate these people to read and read these LINKS.

It’s NOT as if I have one or two. I have provided many.

Please read and understand what our enemies really want.

Michael

 

[abcdefg]

Darrel:

I think that happened in Singapore if I’m not mistaken. I also hear it’s a lot worse than one would think I guess it causes deep laceration which is totaly sick. Effective yes… sick yes.

-D

Be proud of the wound for it is given by a martial arts(kong fu?) master. :crying:
never been to singapore, never will. no one expects the singapore caning.
I’ve seen a few pics but they’re just too sick to be posted.

 

[vern_humphrey]

abcdefg:

just stealing a pair of sunglasses isn’t punishable by law in China and flogging isn’t a legal punishment. must be done by some mobs.

He was not a college student, he was a high school student. He didn’t steal sunglasses, he led a band of thugs which terrorized his school, vandalized cars, and committed other crimes. He did about $20,000 worth of damage to one teacher’s car (cars in Singapore are enormously expensive.)

I worked with the husband of one of his teachers when I was in Singapore – the little thug deserved what he got.