What is torture and should we ever use it

  • Thread starter Thread starter roymckenzie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There was an incident in Iraq where this officer had found that one of the Iraqi police working with his men was working with terrorists planning an attack. After all normal interrogation methods had failed to extract information from him, the officer dismissed the interrogators and he and one of his aids took the prisoner out back of the building. The officer then proceeded to remove his pistol from it’s holster and press it against the back of the mans head. He then told the man that if he didn’t give up the information he would be shot. The man continued to resist. The officer then fired his weapon from behind the mans head into a sand filled bucket that was by the back door of the building. The man collapsed in a fit and lying there on the ground began to tell all he knew of his fellow conspirators. As it turned out they were planning an ambush of the Americans. His confession led to the arrests of the terrorist cell and in all probability saved the lives of over a dozen men.

The officer was raked over the coals for his actions and was finally allowed to retire.

This was an act of torture to be sure.

Was it necessary? I dunno. I suppose it would depend on who you asked. I’m sure the people that made this officers life miserable till they forced him into retirement didn’t think so. But I suspect that you might find the parents and wives of the men who didn’t die, might feel otherwise.

Tough question to deal with.
  • FranL
 
Sleep deprivation and loud tasteless music? That was my last job! There are people working in factories, well known manufacturers, here in the US, that work under conditions that fit the description of the torture at Gitmo. And they’re happy to have the jobs.

Abu Grhab? As a nerd boy in grade school I received worse treatment than that at the hands of my fellow students! And it was a Catholic school!
Is there some kind of aid program I can sign up for as a victim of torture?

In my hippy days I wound up in prison twice. One of the jails was a filthy rat hole the other was actually quite nice, I could live there. I was never abused by the guards. My personal experience is that it is not the norm. Though I was in fear of my life from the inmates in that rat hole in Mississippi.

I apologize if I sound sarcastic. I don’t think Abu Grhab was justified any more than the kids who tortured me in grade school where. But this stuff constitutes a low grade fever and a mild sore throat even compared to the normal lives of many people I know and others I read about. People who don’t think they’re doing too bad in life.

When you compare it to beheadings, dismemberment, burns and electrocution, stuff that others have used and we have so far refrained from using, it’s pretty weak.

For people to carry on the way they do about the isolated incidents of American abuses compared to the gross excesses of others indicates to me a deliberate attempt to undermine our people for reasons that are less than noble.

I’m sorry. I can’t see it any other way.
  • FranL
 
How should we look upon the torture in the prisons under Saddams watch?
 
40.png
jman507:
How should we look upon the torture in the prisons under Saddams watch?
Click to expand...
My friend
I am thinking when you put someone in a shredder that is torture. Infact it may be beyond torture. That is just my couple of copper pieces worth.
 
Torture is wrong and should never be used, not even on animals. BUT methods of interrogation are not torture!

It is an ugly reality of war that a stubborn prisoner might have information necessary to either save lives, win the battle or war, or all three - so some form of coercion must be done!

There are several methods of interrogation taught by various branches of the military that have been accepted as non-torture: sleep deprivation; fear; humiliation; heat; low electric current; low heat; verbal abuse or threats (as long as they’re not carried out); use of water.

Again, these are internationally accepted coercion methods which are used on U.S. convicts as well as suspected terrorists.

Women’s panties on a man’s head is not torture! And neither is group nudity or telling a man he is going to be shocked yet no electricity is induced. There might be isolated incidents of torture actually happening, but so far I have seen none in newspapers or on the internet - yet terrorists have beheaded several Americans and other unfortunates in the name of Allah!
 
Kevin Walker:
Torture is wrong and should never be used, not even on animals. BUT methods of interrogation are not torture!
Click to expand...
Come on little piggy talk. If you don’t talk Wilbur I will make chops out ot you. Come on and talk. . .

Sorry not sure what good tortureing a animal would ever do. It just struck me as strange trying to get information from an animal. You are right of course we should never cause unnecessary pain to animals.

And as far as group nudity you have never seen me naked that would be torture for everyone who had to see that. :eek:

I agree with your assessment about the things done by our soldiers. I really wish it would never have been made an issue but it was not torture
 
40.png
TheGarg:
I agree with you CM, but we are NOT Jesus, and nor do we possess His perfect tolerance.

Here is the scenario, Some bad guy has taken my son and done who knows what with him and threatens to kill him.
I catch an accomplice of this “kidnapping” who knows where my son is at[assuming I have irrefutable proof that he knows the location of my son].
I would do whatever it takes to get that information out of him to save my son from harm’s way, right, wrong, or indifferent.
Do I feel sorry for the guy who I’m torturing. NO. If he didn’t want to experaince it, he shouldn’t have “taken” someone’s child.
He[the man invovled with the crime against my son] brought these consequences on himself.
If i knew, irrefutably that that my torturing this individual would not help save my son’s life, i would not torture or kill him out of spite.
I would see to it that they rot in jail [where they will no doubt face torment and suffering].

Now I’m sure some would label me evil, or bad, or wrong, but that would not matter. All that would matter would be getting my son out of harm’s way. What is your view of this matter?

Peace of the Lord be with you!
Click to expand...
Hey I can well understand…but that is a hypothetical question…and sadly a very human rationalization. (No offense intended, but the Nazis said the same thing pretty much.)

As for a similar situation to keep in mind… The Blessed Virgin.
 
40.png
MamaGeek:
One point you all seem to be overlooking is the unreliability of information obtained under torture. A person undergoing agonizing torment will say anything to make it stop.

Not only is torture immoral, but it is impractical as well.
Click to expand...
Anything can include useful information. I have never bought the pragmaticargument against torture. Sinful behahavior is usually expedient.
 
Sleep deprivation and bombardment with noise and chaos are two ways used to break down humans for brain-washing. When these are used intentionally to fundamentally change the psychic make-up of the victim, they are torture. Let’s face it: broken bones knit far better than broken minds. Keep in mind that the intention is important. A high dose of narcotic may be used to comfort a terminally-ill patient, even if there is a danger of hastening death as a side-effect… this is not assisted suicide. Likewise, some of the “side-effects” of incarceration are the result of the unavoidable choice of submitting convicts to social contact with other convicts (who are by and large a miserable, angry, and poorly socialized lot of people) or submitting them to isolation.

The best rule of thumb (an apt metaphor!) is this: what means of interrogation and incarceration would we think appropriate for our own operatives, be they civil or military? We’re not as perfect as Jesus, but as Hillel could tell you, just using the golden rule will get you a long way.

I seem to hear both “the end justifies the means” and “an eye for an eye” as the starting axiom for some of the arguments I’ve read here. What is amazing to me is how often I hear this sort of talk out in the world from the very people who otherwise decry “situational ethics.” It is a sad day to hear such rationalizations on a Catholic forum, where one would otherwise hear the Cross preached. Once you’ve put expediency over humanity, over your core values of what you are and are not willing to do, including what you are willing to do to survive, you have essentially left the realm of ethics, let alone Christianity.

When Jesus said you had to be willing to lay down your life to follow Him, He meant it. Not “in an ideal world”, but in the real world that you and He and I live in. Don’t tell me for a minute that life now is more brutal than it was in the world of ancient Rome. Jesus knew exactly what He was asking. He walked the walk, and He made it clear that it was to be our walk, too. The early Christians understood that. Do we? The Pascal Mystery inevitably leads to real death, friends.

Don’t kid yourself about the stakes here. What’s it going to be? The way of the world, the way of the flesh… or the Way of the Cross?
 
Kevin Walker:
Women’s panties on a man’s head is not torture! And neither is group nudity or telling a man he is going to be shocked yet no electricity is induced. There might be isolated incidents of torture actually happening, but so far I have seen none in newspapers or on the internet - yet terrorists have beheaded several Americans and other unfortunates in the name of Allah!
Click to expand...
If they are inhuman, we can be inhuman. Where does that cycle stop? And what does it make us in to?

And how about a robber putting a gun to your head, or your child’s head, but not pulling the trigger? No harm, no foul? Oh, please.

As far as the sexual humiliations go, I find these violations of personal dignity, of Islam’s holy devotion to modesty and purity, particularly disgusting. How Our Lady must weep!

Have we forgotten we have Heaven to answer to?
 
Church Militant:
Hey I can well understand…but that is a hypothetical question…and sadly a very human rationalization. (No offense intended, but the Nazis said the same thing pretty much.)

As for a similar situation to keep in mind… The Blessed Virgin.
Click to expand...
I do take a little offense to be honest * , based on the fact of the difference in motives between the “nazis” and I.
Nazis motive = wanted to create the perfect race[PlayGod] and eliminate any one they didn’t decide was up to thier human standard[genocide].

My motive = average joe who tries to do what the Lord tells him, but is a limited man, who has a point where he can no longer be a charitable, compassionate christian[as do we all], and hypothetically trying to save the life of my Son who is 6 and defenseless.

I agree, that torture is wrong, and I would never want to use it, but the sad fact is, it is very effective. Due to this effectiveness it[torture] will continue to be used till the end of time.
Is it justified? That is irrelevant really, since it is a fact of life.
That’s like asking if “getting hit by lightning” is justified.
All we can do is hope not to be caught in a situation where we might face the possibility of being tortured or hit by lightning, or at least make sure if we are in that situation, it is a worthy cause.

Peace of the Lord be with you all!*
 
I agree torture is wrong and we should always avoid it. In the end it really create no peace. Even if it defuses the current situation, there is just a festering until it shows itself again.

One other reason it puts our soul in danger. My question is, how should we deal with others who have no problem with using it? Is it wrong too, if you do not help those who are doing the torture and those tortured? I think if you can come up with a good answer to that, those who justify those aggresive approaches would stay from that thinking.
 
Dear BLB_Oregon,
Code: 
I work as a temp in various factories around the upper Willamette Valley.  Most of the places I work have dress codes.  But this doesn't stop the women from dressing to advertise their goods.  Makes it hard for a Christian man to keep his mind on his work as well as his values.
The younger workers around me don't seem to think they need to spend any time or money seducing the women, "So, ya think ya want to try me on for size." is an actual pick up line I've heard.
“How Our Lady must weep!”
Code: 
Personally, the Islamic dress codes are starting to make sense to me.
Sleep deprivation and loud music is the way of life for most of the factory workers and warehouse workers in the places where I am sent. I have long suspected that it was allowed by management as a way to wear down the will of the worker to get them to accept their long hours, below living wages and minimal or no benefits. But if that is torture, why is it allowed to be practiced so widely in American business.
As I mentioned earlier, I have twice spent time in prison. But I’ve also worked in places that make prison look good by my experience. What you are describing as torture I wasn’t exposed to in prison. I do find it common practice in the work place though.

God bless,
  • FranL
 
40.png
roymckenzie:
You are not far off the mark. I was in army intelligence for 12 years one of my associates was an interrogator. He was a Chief Warrant Officer 4 (CW4) and spoke like 14 languages the equivalent of a college graduate in the country of those languages. The CW4 could get information out of just about anyone without torture. There are hundreds of tricks to finding out information it all depends on how much time you have.
If someone tells you that there is a bomb set to go off in 4 hours and kill 10,000 people what are the limits of what is acceptable to get the information to save those people?
What about sodium pentothal (thiopental sodium)?
Click to expand...
This the key to the whole question – does torture work?

It does not – as both an adviser and as a company commander in Viet Nam, I built and operated my own intelligence systems. I have interrogated prisoners.

It is possible to get information out of prisoners without resorting to torture. On the other hand, you can never rely on information obtained by torture – a person under torture will say whatever his interrogators want to hear, and that is often far from the truth.

There is no justification for torture.
 
Church Militant:
Hey I can well understand…but that is a hypothetical question…and sadly a very human rationalization. (No offense intended, but the Nazis said the same thing pretty much.)

As for a similar situation to keep in mind… The Blessed Virgin.
Click to expand...
I am not sure that is a fair characterization.
I am pretty sure the Nazis told their wives they loved them.
Whether or not the Nazis did this or that is not relevant. The relevance’s is in, is it morally acceptable or not. If it is acceptable then it is just when used justly, if not morally acceptable it is unjust even when used justly.

I know things are not always fair. One thing I have always found as unfair is this. Something that is evil is always evil no matter even if it is used for a good end. On the other hand something that is good is not always good it to can be used for evil.
 
40.png
roymckenzie:
I am not sure that is a fair characterization.
I am pretty sure the Nazis told their wives they loved them.
Whether or not the Nazis did this or that is not relevant. The relevance’s is in, is it morally acceptable or not. If it is acceptable then it is just when used justly, if not morally acceptable it is unjust even when used justly.

I know things are not always fair. One thing I have always found as unfair is this. Something that is evil is always evil no matter even if it is used for a good end. On the other hand something that is good is not always good it to can be used for evil.
Click to expand...
This first quote is inarguably the most important and defining.
Luke 6: 31 “And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them in like manner.”-- Jesus Christ.

This second one just seems very appropriate:
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. – William Pitt, speech, Nov. 18, 1783
 
I think torture works, the method used depends on the subject. Be it pain or sleep and food deprivation or perhaps drug therapy or a combination. I also think it is evil, so what should we do with all of these people when we catch them? Should we release them to return to the world of the terrorist? Should we lock them up for life? That is a horrible torture worse than death. Should we kill them and take no prisoners?

We know for certain that these people are fanatics who want us dead for being Christians or Americans or for any number of reasons. I know torture is wrong and is a sin but the question remains … What do we do with these people? We can pray for them but that doesn’t answer the question.

There really doesn’t seem to be an easy answer to this. So I guess the government looks to extract information from them to protect us all. Is this wrong verses our other options? It’s a tough call, but one thing is for certain, they put us in this position of being forced to decide by doing what they did. I think I will pray that Christ will touch there hearts and they will repent of there hate and murder all done in Gods name.

-D
 
40.png
Darrel:
I think torture works, the method used depends on the subject.
Click to expand...
If your object is to get a confession – even from an innocent persopn – then torture works. If your object is to get accurate information – information you can trust your life to – torture doesn’t work.

You can read the records of witch trials in Scotland and England (and I presume in Germany.) Under torture, people told stories that we know are totally false. They told the torturers what the torturers WANTED to hear.
 
vern humphrey:
If your object is to get a confession – even from an innocent persopn – then torture works. If your object is to get accurate information – information you can trust your life to – torture doesn’t work.

You can read the records of witch trials in Scotland and England (and I presume in Germany.) Under torture, people told stories that we know are totally false. They told the torturers what the torturers WANTED to hear.
Click to expand...
I agree that the old torture dungeon in the classic sense is unreliable. But I also mentioned sleep and food and drugs. Pain alone won’t do it, but a little or threat of it can get results. For example they might soften up a prisoner a little before questioning to create the assumption on the part of the prisoner that more will happen. Or they might use group tactics in a cell, where you have 3 guys being questioned 2 of which get beaten while being questioned but one doesn’t causing them to turn on each other.

From what I understand 20 hrs of interviewing a day over six months will generally tend to get some answers. It’s more about ‘environment control’ the object is to break the mind not the body. People eventually will become what you make them if you control every stimulus long enough. When I say it depends on the subject I mean that what will work on a terrorist from Syria wont work on a Wall Street executive it has a lot to do with psychology and profiles and belief systems etc. Once a repore is established it’s only a matter of time, and people will actually forget who they are and start talking.

I can imagine people hearing things like "listen man it doesn’t matter to me, we are going to be here talking every day for the rest of your life, I get paid the same either way, do you want some water? Do you think Allah is going to save you now that you have failed to become a martyr etc etc etc. Is this a picture of your mother is this your daughter. The object is to get them to talk and to question the wisdom in being faithful to there cause over time. I’m sure they know what they are doing and I’m sure it’s totally wrong. Psyops has been happening in the military for a long time.

In some cases it may produce better results to treat people with charity and kindness or use a female interrogator or a muslim interrogator. Or use several all working together on different angles all monitored and recorded for analysis. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if some the information we have already obtained has resulted in military operations. With the resources we have through agencies like the CIA or the NSA it is possible to take down a whole network of terrorist by gaining one name through the captive prisoners.

The prison camp in Cuba in the eyes of the military is nothing more than a resource for military intel. The whole thing is just devoid of caring and love. But I seriously can’t think of a better solution with regards to what should be done with a captured terrorist who we know has information. Should we just not attempt to get the info and treat them with love and dignity? I would be open to that idea… but what about those hundreds of people who get killed later on by an attack that could have been prevented?

-D
 
40.png
Darrel:
We know for certain that these people are fanatics who want us dead for being Christians or Americans or for any number of reasons. I know torture is wrong and is a sin but the question remains … What do we do with these people? We can pray for them but that doesn’t answer the question…

I think I will pray that Christ will touch there hearts and they will repent of there hate and murder all done in Gods name.
Click to expand...
I just can’t envision St. Stephen or Sts. Peter and Paul having this conversation, and they did have people hunting them down. They were martyred by people who were trying to stamp out Christianity, yet they killed no one, tortured no one. We are in nothing like the danger they were in. Why are we talking like this?

God touches hearts by the way He loves people through us. We have to live His love, even if it leads us to a horrible death. Read the Gospels, read the beatitudes. That is the commandment, as clear as crystal.

The Church will not die without these unethical defenses. The faith will not die. We have that promise. If we, individually, die following Jesus, we die. As Mother Theresa said, “God did not call me to be successful. He called me to be faithful.”

Incarceration of criminals is appropriate, but torture is not.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top