What is torture and should we ever use it

[maklavan]

From the Catholic catechism:
“Torture, is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity”
I was shocked to see people in the poll asserting that torture is sometimes justified.

 

[maklavan]

The Vatican has made several recent pronouncements condemning torture,and the Catholic Catechism states: “Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty,frighten opponents,or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the personand for human dignity.”
I was deeply shocked to see that several people in the poll think that torture is sometimes justified.

 

[FranL]

vern humphrey:

Feel free to post them here.

Good idea!

A pointless argument, since torture isn’t effective at gaining intelligence.
Which is why I say, accept the truth. It doesn’t work and fanticizing and speculating about it doesn’t help.

Your opinion. What have you posted besides your opinion.

I have read that life on earth was planted by space aliens – but that doesn’t make it true.

But they have presented just as much evidence as you have. Their own personal opinion.

Feel free to post something to support that – but look at your sources. Was the author present when the torture was administered, or is this just hear-say?

I have never interrogated or tortured anyone personally. I have to rely on the same news stories that the vast majority of folks do to get their information. So, I am willing to admit that the information I have is “second hand”. But since these stories inevitably produce government investigations and the results of these investigations become “history” I would give them a higher reliability rating than the experiences of one man who may have been there.

Since isn’t true, all this speculation does is raise the argument that you are making in the above passage – that it MAY BE morally acceptable to torture people.

One mans opinion.

And as I pointed out, these things don’t work.

Still just one mans opinion.

I have posted information in an earlier quote concerning the unprecedented success of the North Koreans in culling defectors from the prison population with the use of torture on the level we see at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

I couldn’t be more specific because the article mentioned was long enough ago that I don’t know where to look for it now. But if you were really interested in the truth I’m sure an hour or so on the internet would turn up some information on the subject.

I also related an incident, in another post, that occurred just this past year in Iraq where reliable information was successfully obtained by an officer after the normal means of interrogation failed. The information was reliable enough to lead to the capture of terrorists and save a dozen or so of our men from a planned ambush.
That one I can remember and will look up and post later this week when I have time.

Sorry Vern, you’ve failed to convince me. There’s too much weight on the other side of the argument.

Respectfully yours,

• FranL

 

[Traditional_Ang]

maklavan:

The Vatican has made several recent pronouncements condemning torture,and the Catholic Catechism states: “Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty,frighten opponents,or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the personand for human dignity.”
I was deeply shocked to see that several people in the poll think that torture is sometimes justified.

Maklavan:

Has the Vatican actually stated that this is an absolute PROSCRIPTION, i.e., That NO Christian may use ANY coercive techniques NO matter HOW MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE’S LIVES WOULD BE SAVED if we could get at the information locked inside of UNCOOPERATIVE MURDEROUS TERRORISTS and prevent the attcks against those INNOCENT PEOPLE by his TERRORIST COHORTS who would SLAUGHTER THEM? Has the Vatican actually stated that NO coercive techtiniques may be used to get information from a MURDEROUS TERRORIST, NO MATTER HOW MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE WOULD BE SLAUGHTERED BY HIS TERRORIST COMRADES IF WE DON’T GET THAT INFORMATION?

What about the human dignity of the people who would be SLAUGHTERED by the TERRORIST’S COMRADES? Have you seen what the Terrorists do to the people they’re murdering while they’re murdering them and to their bodies afterward?

BTW, Did you know the Church’s teaching on Torture hasn’t always been consistant? And, that the Church allowed it by the Civil authorities during large parts of the Church’s history, even when those authorities were CATHOLIC?

Did you read the rather LONG laundry list of LINKS that I provided documenting what these Islamist terrorists have done to other people and what they will do to us and to our neighbors?

On this one, because of the danger that I and others have documented, and because of the manner of the attack on our country on 9/11 and during the 1990’s. I’ll need a Papal Bull or something from an Ecumenical Council. Because you’re telling me that one day soon, someone is going to have to tell millions of people that their loved ones were allowed to die in a nuclear explosion because we refused to take actions “contrary to the respect for the person and the human dignity” of a murderous terrorist who had information that could have saved their loved ones’ lives.

If you don’t believe that we’re in danger, I recommend you throroughly read all 21 articles I LINKED above! Also, read my bit on Beslan - That’s based on translations from Russian newspapers that I was spoonfed - You can ask the Russian Orthodox on this Forum if I’ve been accurate.

Michael

 

[TheGarg]

abcdefg:

just stealing a pair of sunglasses isn’t punishable by law in China and flogging isn’t a legal punishment. must be done by some mobs.

Acutally it was Singapore, and here is a link to a column written about the pros/cons of caning.

Its[public caning as a punishment] got my vote.

Pain is our only teacher, for we never knew the fire was hot until we touched it

corpun.com/usju9404.htm

 

[maklavan]

BTW, Did you know the Church’s teaching on Torture hasn’t always been consistant? And, that the Church allowed it by the Civil authorities during large parts of the Church’s history, even when those authorities were CATHOLIC?

I am well aware of this,and the Church has issued a profound apology for this error in recent times. The Church teaches that even one sin is more important than all other considerations, therefore, since torture is a great moral evil, it cannot be justified, even if innocent lives were to be saved.

 

[FranL]

maklavan:

The Vatican has made several recent pronouncements condemning torture,and the Catholic Catechism states: “Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty,frighten opponents,or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the personand for human dignity.”
I was deeply shocked to see that several people in the poll think that torture is sometimes justified.

I agree with all of the above.:yup: But torture for the purpose of obtaining potentially life saving intelligence does not fall into any of the above mentioned categories.:nope:
Extracting intelligence is not the same thing as obtaining confessions nor does it fit under any of the other motivations on the list.

In fact, any of the above listed motivations would contaminate the methodology of the persons employing the torture and render their reliability questionable to say the least.

I think some of you dear readers are still equating “interrogation” with “inquisition”.:bigyikes: Intelligence personnel are not interested in confessions. They are attempting to extract information. Information that can be tested and used to save lives.

Also, the way I interpret the goings on at Abu Ghraib is that it was the result of US recruitment practices. Many of the men I know who are in the National Guard are in it for the extra pay they need to pay off their bass boat. (Not all, but to many.) The same is true for many of the career personnel I knew in the service. (“Beats working for a living!” they would often say.) They are the “disadvantaged products of poor upbringing” and unable to behave better than that without adult supervision. I don’t think this is an example of “professional” behavior either by interrogators or soldiers.

It is sinful to me to blame our failures as parents on the US military. They were expecting us to raise our sons and daughters before we sent them off to war. Not send them off in the hopes that government would raise them for us.:tsktsk:

(Though maybe the officers in charge could have worked harder to make sure their men had adult supervision at all times.:ehh: )

My apologies to the many professional soldiers who take their duties to family and country seriously and excel at their chosen career. I know you are out there and I am grateful.

Anyway, until I’m convinced otherwise, I think it is plain that the motivation of intelligence gathering clearly does not fit into any of the above mentioned categories.

God bless,

• FranL:tiphat:

 

[FranL]

I can respect that about the Palestinian situation. I expect that it would represent dozens of different side issues if we were to let it go.:yup:

As far as radical Islam is concerned, I see it as being in a three way tie for first place on the list of the three greatest threats to western civilization.
We are and have been for some time at war whether anyone wants to wake up to the fact or not.
And we are fighting for the continued existence of Christian civilization as well as for the worldwide salvation of hundreds of millions of souls. And we have been steadily loosing ground for too many generations.

Christian Europe is already a lost battle. Most of this list’s readers who are under fifty will surely live to see Europe become an Islamic culture. And I’m not talking about the kind of friendly, likeable “Islam” practiced by the guy running the 7 Eleven down the corner. I’m talking about the “spraying spit while you rant on about death to the infidels” kind of Islam.:bigyikes:

Thanks for the support,

God bless,

• FranL

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Traditional Ang:

Oregon, I don’t think anyone is suggesting using means such as THE RACK, or THE STRAPPADO, or THE IRON MAIDEN, all of which were condoned and COMMANDED BY HOLY MOTHER CHURCH at one time!

But they are suggesting means sufficient to acquire information from REALLY EVIL MEN, Islamist Fascist Terrorists, who would love to nothing better than to slaughter you just like some of them did an Egyptian Coptic Christian IN AMERICA just yesterday! They would dearly love to slaughter you like the did THEO VAN GOGH last month IN AMSTERDAM! They would dearly love to slaughter your children like they did ALL of those RUSSIAN CHILDREN in BESLAN in SEPTEMBER! They would dearly love to SLAUGHTER US and ENSLAVE our CHILDREN like they’ve done in SOUTHERN SUDAN!

I could go on, and on, but I hope you’ve got the idea.

I can LINK YOU TO DEATH on this, or you can accept that these Islamist Fascist Terrorists want to pull our society down around our ears, form EURABIA and a GIANT KALIFATE, and destroy Western Civilization for good!

Previous generations haven’t faced an enemy completely prepared to DIE in order to take their lives and those of their enemy’s CHILDREN!

Previous generations haven’t faced people who glorified this and called it a RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION!

Previous generations haven’t faced a situation where those people could get their hands on nuclear weapons, and, thereby, take the lives of millions of INNOCENT men, WOMEN & CHILDREN!

I don’t know what I can do to get you to see the absolute moral difference between these Islamist Fascist Terrorists and those who are defending the INNOCENTS against them, and why making some of these terrorists uncomfortable might be necessary to SAVE the lives of those INNOCENTS that you seem to be ready to allow to die at the hands of the Islamist Fascist Terrorists!

Now, do you understand?

Michael

You do not need to “link me to death” and you do not need to shout. I do not know where you got the idea that I equate torture and mere discomfort, or that I think that even Holy Mother Church is under the impression that she has always been spotless in the morality of her activities. Murderous, sadistic religious zealots have existed throughout history, convinced of their own self-righteousness, and yes, sometimes it has been us.

Let me ask you this: do you think that torturing IRA car bombers would have stopped that conflict? On the whole, how many innocent British lives would have been saved, had the British made torture for intelligence their policy? How would that have affected recruitment in Ireland, or fund-raising in Boston, for that matter? Would the bombings and other violence have stopped, had they had stripped those Irish Catholic lads and made them approximate sex acts with each other? If they had brain-washed them into giving up what they knew? If you were a young man willing to die to defeat your enemies, would you be more or less inclined to believe someone an enemy if they tortured and degraded your brother, your cousin, your friend, your fellow Catholics? Would you consider making peace with those people, or even hope that your children might have anything but hatred for them? Men have forgiven each other for shooting each other’s comrades in battle. That is war. Torture in war, though… that is another matter.

It is not just that the evil you espouse leads to violence that goes on for generations, that it pours gasoline on the fire of hatred consuming those who would consume us. It is that it is foreign to what it means to be Christian. I suppose there are some who follow Islam who may think they’ll find 20 virgins waiting for them if they die to kill our children. We don’t believe that. That is not what it means to follow Jesus. The Cross says that given the choice of death or departing from God’s commandments … you choose death.

This is not new territory, as you suggest. Has that not been the siren song sung to lure every generation into the deepest societal evils? “We are different, our enemies more evil, our children more precious, our innocence more unassailable, our cause more right. For us, for these times, the ends do justify the means.” All the numbers are bigger, but the reality is the same. As I have said before, the Psalms are full of laments wondering whether God’s enemies will prevail in destroying all His people. They won’t. We will not be abandoned. Now is the test of our faith, whether we really believe any of that stuff about loving our enemies or whether it isn’t just a bunch of feel-good parrot talk. We have to take up our crosses and follow Jesus.

And please… if you reply to this, no shouting.

 

[vern_humphrey]

BLB_Oregon:

Let me ask you this: do you think that torturing IRA car bombers would have stopped that conflict? On the whole, how many innocent British lives would have been saved, had the British made torture for intelligence their policy? .

The British actually tried it – a group of prisoners were set aside for experimentation in the “12 Methods” – which included sleep deprivation. It produced no useable intelligence, but the survivors were mostly mental cases afterwards, and more than one committed suicide.

 

[FranL]

Well Vern,

Being largely Irish and being raised in a predominantly Irish neighborhood in my youth and now being able to speak on this subject from my personal experience I have the following to say about this matter of the Irish being subjected to torture.

First of all, being Irish, the subjects of said experiment most likely didn’t have much if any intelligence to spare in the first place.

Second of all, being Irish, they probably came out of the experience very much in the same condition as they went in.

Sincerely,

• FranL

 

[vern_humphrey]

FranL:

Well Vern,

Being largely Irish and being raised in a predominantly Irish neighborhood in my youth and now being able to speak on this subject from my personal experience I have the following to say about this matter of the Irish being subjected to torture.

First of all, being Irish, the subjects of said experiment most likely didn’t have much if any intelligence to spare in the first place.

Second of all, being Irish, they probably came out of the experience very much in the same condition as they went in.

Sincerely,

• FranL

As an Irishman meself, I can tell yez that if the Government’s aim was to eradicate the IRA, they failed.

In fact, a study of “the Troubles” from '69 on would be a long list of ways not to end an insurgency.

 

[FranL]

vern humphrey:

As an Irishman meself, I can tell yez that if the Government’s aim was to eradicate the IRA, they failed.

In fact, a study of “the Troubles” from '69 on would be a long list of ways not to end an insurgency.

Erin go bragh!

God bless you and keep you Vern,

• FranL:tiphat:

 

[BLB_Oregon]

vern humphrey:

As an Irishman meself, I can tell yez that if the Government’s aim was to eradicate the IRA, they failed.

In fact, a study of “the Troubles” from '69 on would be a long list of ways not to end an insurgency.

In your opinion, how might experience with “the troubles” then be best applied to how to deal with “the troubles” now? What are the differences and similarities?

 

[vern_humphrey]

BLB_Oregon:

In your opinion, how might experience with “the troubles” then be best applied to how to deal with “the troubles” now? What are the differences and similarities?

The fundamental difference is Ireland is a Western European nation and Iraq is in the Middle East. To see how things in Ireland **should **have been handled, look at the Irish Republic – you don’t see discrimination against Protestants there, nor do you see a Protestant separatist movement.

In Iraq, the best lesson that seems transferrable is to set up a democratic government. We already have done that in Afghanistan, and it seems to be working pretty well.

We also see signs that terrorism by Iraqis and foreigners against Iraqis (and that’s what most of the terrorism is) is not a popular thing – a stronger government would have a lot of help knocking out terrorist cells.

We need to recognize, however, that an American presence in the Middle East will be needed for years to come. After all, it was our disengagement that allowed terrorism to flourish in the first place – we could have stopped the Taliban before they grew up.

 

[Daeron]

vern humphrey:

We already have done that in Afghanistan, and it seems to be working pretty well.

Instead, Afghanistan is again the world’s leading Opium manufacturer; but its ‘President’ is the best dressed man between Rome & Hollywood; and in Iraq a man who shots prisoners in the head is about to become its President.

After all, it was our disengagement that allowed terrorism to flourish in the first place – we could have stopped the Taliban before they grew up.

Funny early disengagement is what bin Laden’s complaint against the US was. Of course its not that cut or dry.

The US was never in Afghanistan before the invasion; the CIA was. Yes they could have stopped the creation of the Taliban by the Pakistani Intelligence services; but human rights outside the borders of the US has been of nil interest to US governments since WW-II; but unknown to most Americans, human rights abuses have been US economic foreign policy since WW-ii.

Instead of calling me names; you should be trying to figure out* why it is that from 1901 to 2001 the US credo changed* from:

“hard work & honesty will bring life’s rewards”
to
“Profits above all else”.

The United States has changed a lot since WW-i & WW-ii ; the rat-race is the holy crusade that everyone on the planet must join? All in the name of progress; or was it a spreading evil that used “progress” to hide itself ? Technology & business are all fine & wonderful things, but it’s the evil schemes that hid from the US public that have created so much woe.

From Vietnam to 9/11; both events & much worse created by the same force; by a handfull of corrupt Americans who do not care who had to pay for their profits.

And still Americans can not see what is being done in their names;
because the same corrupt people who profit from evil are the same ones able to filter the world news that gets back to the US. Americans are killed, and you never hear of that; tens of thousands are killed by a US firm and again you never hear of it because it would affect their profits.

An idiot wanted profits, result, Vietnam war.
An idiot wanted profits, result, an Axis power anti-US propaganda campaign went unchecked for 50 years – result individuals world-wide believing a anti-US Jihad is their duty – result 9/11.

 

[Steve_Weatherbe]

Torture was abandoned in Europe as a investigative technique in the early modern period, both by the State and the Church at least partly because it was unreliable.
This debate seems to be about the great topic: do the ends justify the means? The Church’s answer, in the case of just war theology, is to divide the question in two. First: are the ends just? And if they are, then the second: are the means just? I don’t know what specifically the Church says about torture but my guess is that torture is intrinsically unjust, like, say, deliberately bombing civilian targets in order to wina war. Not what was done in Iraq.

Arguers for torture usually stack the deck: see Vince Flynn’s series of political thrillers, very pro-torture. Vince’s hero is always justified because the bad guys are about to blow up washington dc with an H-bomb. What’s one Muslim’s human dignity against 1 million innocent lives?

But are most torture victims today holders of such momentous secrets? No, the torturers just want a few names, for more people to lock up. And most torturers arent Americans, who we may think we can trust to exercise restraint, but agents of totalitarian regimes who we can’t trust. Do we really want to align ourselves with such regimes? Does America really need torture to survive? And what kind of an America will it be if defended by torture?

A final thought, if America uses torture on them, then aren’t they justified in using it on Americans?

 

[Black_Jaque]

I think of torture as pain inflicted without giving the subject an “out”. I.E. a policeman who roughs up a beligerent crook does so only to the point where the crook begins to co-operate at which point the rough treatment ceases - that would be reasonable.

It would be wrong to torture someone and use the guise of giving them and “out” by coercing them to act against their dignity or rights. That is a false “out” because the prisoner has to choose between severe physical pain or severe mental/spiritual pain. I.E. an interrogator who beats a prisoner until the prisoner renounces his faith.

As long as the “out” or path of no-pain is a path of moral truth, then it isn’t torture. Provided the harsh treatment is commensurate.

Trying to coerce a confession is not right either, as a person has a right not to self-incriminate. Trying to coerce information that would stop a disaster might be acceptable, the prisoner has no right to cause the disaster.

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

Torture is an intrisic evil, though i have not studied up on i’t methodology and it’s circumstances. However you must look at it in the context of the greater honor and glory of God, which we base all of our actions on (or at least we should) What i mean by that is simply this, we all have inside of us what is called the natural law, whether you pay it any heed or not is a different story, but heres the thing. Being that we have inside of us the natural law written on our hearts, that becomes our referance point, for Christians, it’s Christ. and Yet there is something we know that is wrong here, lets look at it through the non-baptized person.

They do not yet know of Christ, but still it serves as their referance point. So if they were about to inflict torture upon somebody, to them it’s not necessarily Christ that is telling them what they are doing is wrong, it’s the natural law, they realize that people weren’t created and were not built for this kind of cruelty, therefore they deductively (through the eyes of the natural law) have come to the conclusion that something is wrong here.

Now it is a bit different with the Christian, who knows Christ and who along with the Natural Law serves as their referance point. So they now have to points of referance, Christ & the Natural Law. Looking at through the eyes of a Christian we understand, that whatsoever we do to the least of our brethren we do unto our blessed Lord. He is our standard, by which we are to judge and to compare, though we can never be what he was we strive for that. Can we, even in good conscience inflict torture, i do not think so. There is quite a big differance between, self defense during war time, and torture as means of drawing out information. Keep in mind war is not intrinsically evil.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Daeron:

United States has changed a lot since WW-i & WW-ii ; the rat-race is the holy crusade that everyone on the planet must join? All in the name of progress; or was it a spreading evil that used “progress” to hide itself ? Technology & business are all fine & wonderful things, but it’s the evil schemes that hid from the US public that have created so much woe.
…
the same corrupt people who profit from evil are the same ones able to filter the world news that gets back to the US. Americans are killed, and you never hear of that; tens of thousands are killed by a US firm and again you never hear of it because it would affect their profits.

“The love of money is the root of all evil”… the problems of which you speak have been around for a very long time. We ought not imagine that our time is any different.