What is Tradition

[AmateurPianist]

I really do hope this helps!!

Yes, it was very helpful.

As I ponder this issue, I have concluded that all Christians to some extent or another believe in what Catholics call tradition. Now they may not call it tradition, but this is minor.

The differences of course being language and how it fits into other parts to form the big picture.

But that pretty much in my mind sums up the differences on many issues…language and how the various parts combine and interrelate to each other to produce the big picture. I am quickly coming to the conclusion that the differences between Christians is not as large as they are made to appear.

 

[KathleenGee]

Amateur Pianist…

Amen! to that…problem is the veil of language or the perceptions we are of rules and regulations if not the anti-Christ.

According to our catechism…425, “The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in Him…’ 426, 'At the heart of catechesis (teaching the faith), we find, in essence, a Person, the Person of Jesus of Nazareth, the only Son from the Father…who suffered and died for us and who now, after rising, is living with us forever…catechesis aims at putting 'people…in communion…with Jesus Christ: only he can leadus to the love of the Father in the Spirit and make us share in the life of the Holy Trinity.”

Jesus completes the revelation of God. From there, He instituted His Church. The Holy Spirit is what is guiding the Church. Nothing is defined as true unless the seat of Peter and the union of all bishops and believers joined with them hold the same…universality…

So you have to know the difference between what is the spirit of the Church as just given here or individual popes or theologians making statements of their convictions, their beliefs that represent more their individual take on things…it may cover a broad perspective in their specific times…but for it to be universal and lasting…it must represent all.

The laity as well work to define our beliefs…The sheep know their Shepherd and He knows His sheep…the laity can discern in the spirit if what an individual is teaching is not coinciding with the universality of our faith in Jesus Christ. Our construct of Catholicism is the new life in Jesus Christ.

 

[LionHeart777]

It is my understanding that all of the above have a common New Testament. The differences in the above being the set of books called either Deuterocanonicals or Apocrypha. And these books all predate Jesus Christ,

So if the definition of tradition would be the teachings of Jesus Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to the apostolic church, all of the above are in disagreement,

I know this is sort of passing the buck, but this is a topic I refuse to debate. I think the right metric would be the set of books used by Jesus Christ (since He never gripes about His Bible being long or short), but as to what that might be I have not encountered the definitive answer.

If I remember right, I wasn’t necessarily wanting to debate but just presenting it as a general dilemma one would face if they went with that option. You raise a point I hadn’t considered about whether the OT Canon is a big “T” Tradition or little “t” tadition.

 

[Belloc_Fan]

If you’re up for some not-light reading, Benedict XVI’s book “God’s Word” is a collection of essays he wrote as Joseph Ratzinger, the theologian. I’m not kidding that they’re not an easy read, but they’re brilliant. The first essay in particular addresses this issue of the relationship between Scripture, Tradition, and Apostolic Succession. Tradition is the “handing on” of the Truth, while Apostolic Succession is the primary manner in which it is handed on from one generation to the next, according to Church Fathers like Irenaeus. This, by the way, is why Tradition is often talked about as a living thing – because the “once-for-all” faith is still being proclaimed and shared amongst the Church, and passed on through Apostolic Succession. So it’s not just a fact in the past, but is very much an always-present reality which we seek to understand, and a reality we try and grasp through the lens of our own experiences, etc.

 

[AmateurPianist]

If you’re up for some not-light reading, Benedict XVI’s book “God’s Word” is a collection of essays he wrote as Joseph Ratzinger, the theologian. I’m not kidding that they’re not an easy read, but they’re brilliant. The first essay in particular addresses this issue of the relationship between Scripture, Tradition, and Apostolic Succession. Tradition is the “handing on” of the Truth, while Apostolic Succession is the primary manner in which it is handed on from one generation to the next, according to Church Fathers like Irenaeus. This, by the way, is why Tradition is often talked about as a living thing – because the “once-for-all” faith is still being proclaimed and shared amongst the Church, and passed on through Apostolic Succession. So it’s not just a fact in the past, but is very much an always-present reality which we seek to understand, and a reality we try and grasp through the lens of our own experiences, etc.

Ah, apostolic succession. Forgot that one on the preservation of tradition.

So I think I can start a little sort-of matrix here called “Modes of Preservation” of tradition. At least a start.

• Writings of apostolic and early church fathers: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant (1)
• Creeds of the early church: Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant (1)
• Apostolic Succession: Catholic, Orthodox
• Magisterium of Catholic church: Catholic

(1) Some Protestants. Other Protestants deny any useful role of the writings and creeds of the early and apostolic church.

And another one “Authority level of tradition in relationship to Scripture”

Catholic: Same as Scripture (at least in some cases). Tradition claimed ex Cathedra as dogma is incapable of being incorrect and must be believed by the faithful. However I do recall having read one Catholic source that indicated less than Scripture. Forgot the source.

Orthodox: Not sure

Protestant: Less than Scripture to some extent. Claims of Sacred Tradition are testable by Scripture. The faithful do not have to believe claims of Sacred Tradition that are unsubstantiated by Scripture.

 

[Bluegoat]

With regard to what qualifies as Tradition being teachings given directly to the apostles. This is tricky, because the Church has further defined and explicated this material. None of the apostles, for example, would be able to give you the Creeds in their final form, and they would not have used the theological language that was developed by the Church. But we don’t understand those to be really new ideas, we say that they are more exact and specific explications of what the Church has always believed.

This is why whenever there is a new dogma, it has to be argued that this has in some sense always been understood to be the case, if only in a very undeveloped or implicit form.

The Catholic Church has probably been the most active with such proclamations compared to the Orthodox and the Protestants. The Orthodox tend to be very conservative in only defining teachings when necessary to combat heresy. Protestants will often say that the only necessary, big-T Traditions are those which are confirmed by Scripture (if they admit to use of the idea or its equivalent at all.

 

[LionHeart777]

With regard to what qualifies as Tradition being teachings given directly to the apostles. This is tricky, because the Church has further defined and explicated this material. None of the apostles, for example, would be able to give you the Creeds in their final form, and they would not have used the theological language that was developed by the Church. But we don’t understand those to be really new ideas, we say that they are more exact and specific explications of what the Church has always believed.

This is why whenever there is a new dogma, it has to be argued that this has in some sense always been understood to be the case, if only in a very undeveloped or implicit form.

The Catholic Church has probably been the most active with such proclamations compared to the Orthodox and the Protestants. The Orthodox tend to be very conservative in only defining teachings when necessary to combat heresy. Protestants will often say that the only necessary, big-T Traditions are those which are confirmed by Scripture (if they admit to use of the idea or its equivalent at all.

Thanks Bluegoat. That helped my understanding.

 

[mickeyfan35]

Reading this thread has been very helpful and to not have any bickering has been WONDERFUL. Bless you all!

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Reading this thread has been very helpful and to not have any bickering has been WONDERFUL. Bless you all!

I second that – I’ve been thrilled at the positive and informational tone of this thread, and I think that the OP did a very good job in setting an inquisitive-but-charitable tone. It’s been great to not have to wade through pages of defensiveness and petty bickering to get to the substance of the matter, and I like the mutual questioning that’s gone on. Very edifying thread!

 

[KathleenGee]

The reality that the Latin Rite has to work at administrating and ensuring the Oral Tradition reflects its final authority.

The Universal Church recognizes the various churches and rites throughout the world…they are self-governing…but when in dispute…go to Rome.

Christ had followers who misinterpreted Him. The apostles dealt with heretics with Christ and afterwards…the true believers acknowledged Christ as the Son of God. But as time passed, the various churches began to slip away from Christ as True Man, and that brought about the NIcene Creed.

My pastor considers the Nicene Creed…in the Church … as the final, definitive meaning/definition/truth of Who Christ is…and in context of Who God is.

People have to understand that our basic point of gathering is the Mass…there may be erroneous thinking and practices by some priests themselves…so our safeguard is to continue to focus on Christ, continue to go to Mass, pray, advise…and let Rome be Rome…eventually the errors and practices will be corrected. The Vatican is dealing with inculturation and the challenge of modernization vs the Oral Tradition of Christ all the time with all kinds of people, so it takes them time to handle all the problems…some take 20 years…but things do get straightened out… So you focus on the Eucharist, confession, living out the Gospel and following Christ, studying your faith, praying in the meantime.