What is wanting?

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STT said:
Free will enter the games only when we do bad…
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And this is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not buy this. Such judgments of value are the realm of reason. It’s instincts and appetites (satisfying feelings and our needs as animals) that are largely computational, and these are often at odds with reasoned moral judgments. It is by virtue of having a volitional will and a rational intellect that accounts for moral culpability, ethical debates, reasoned discourse, and all of those higher order concerns.

I agree that morality is rational. It would be absurd if it was simply arbitrary. I disagree that rationality is merely a computation or algorithm. Certainly a program can carry out its algorithm perfectly and still come up with a wrong answer or evil result.
 
PseuTonym said:
When you vote in an election, isn’t there a difference between being conscious of which candidate you are selecting, and being conscious of your motivations for choosing the candidate you are selecting?
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Yes, there is a difference.
PseuTonym said:
You speak of a “conscious act”, but there seems to be a difference between being conscious of the act itself and being conscious of your motivations.
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Yes, there is a difference.
 
PseuTonym said:
What is the relationship between “rational” and “perfect”? For example, if one of your beliefs is false, then your state of mind isn’t perfect. How does rationality guarantee that what you believe is actually true?
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By perfect I meant that it lacks imperfection due to choosing bad in your system of belief. You are however correct that my system of belief cannot be correct but I am trying to mark the person withing his system of belief.
PseuTonym said:
If your goals aren’t good because some things that you believe to be good aren’t actually good, then you might do a little bit of a good and a lot of evil.
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That is true but here we are not talking about ignorance of a person on a topic. What we are claiming is that assuming that good and bad are well defined in a situation then we choose bad only because we have free will and that is imperfect. In another word, free will is an deficiency.
 
fhansen said:
Only God is perfect by nature. All of creation is, by virtue of its necessary inferiority to its Creator, imperfect relatively speaking, but can strive for its perfection when free will is involved. Creation’s perfection can only be achieved as it willingly unites and comes into accord with God and His perfection.We must feed off of it, off of Him, or suffer becoming less perfect, less just IOW.
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The point I am making is that free will is the source of imperfection therefore God is imperfect for creating a universe with agents whom have free will.
 
PseuTonym said:
Consider a military conflict between two governments. On both sides, the generals are involved in gathering information, planning, developing strategies, and making management decisions. The foot soldiers are closer to the action, obeying commands rather than trying to figure out what is rational and reasonable.

However, if the generals on one side are fighting against the generals on the other side, then how is it possible that all of the generals are choosing good?
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This is beyond the subject of this thread but yes, both general are doing good in their system of believes.
PseuTonym said:
Does pursuing good create conflict?
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What do you mean?
 
Wesrock said:
And this is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not buy this. Such judgments of value are the realm of reason. It’s instincts and appetites (satisfying feelings and our needs as animals) that are largely computational, and these are often at odds with reasoned moral judgments. It is by virtue of having a volitional will and a rational intellect that accounts for moral culpability, ethical debates, reasoned discourse, and all of those higher order concerns.
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We can most of the time find out a set of prioritized options in which there is a best option, better option, good option, etc. We should always rationally choose the best option but we sometimes don’t. Why? Because of free will.
 
STT said:
The point I am making is that free will is the source of imperfection therefore God is imperfect for creating a universe with agents whom have free will.
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No, the imperfection, relatively speaking, is inherent in creation. It can only manifest itself via free will. Granting free will appears risky, but only He knows the beginning from the end.
 
STT said:
This is beyond the subject of this thread but yes, both general are doing good in their system of believes.
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Are you suggesting that generals don’t have free will?

Perhaps I have misunderstood your words, but my impression was that you were claiming that free will allows people to deliberately choose what they know to be morally wrong. Now, surely you are aware that mercenaries exist. Surely there are people who have experience, proficiency, knowledge, etc. associated with functioning in a military role. It would be very surprising if they all focus on the moral issues involved in the conflicts.

How about skill in making counterfeit money? Has there ever been somebody who made counterfeit money merely as a source of income, or have all counterfeiters throughout history always been pursuing what they thought to be moral ideals?
 
STT said:
I meant that there is no good reason to have free will. I missed “good”. What is the point of having free will when it could lead to bad?
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Simple. It is the whole reason of our being. Answer me this, if God created us with a mind of our own, but refused to let us use that mind, what would be the reason for it.

God created us with a human mind to use, we either follow good or evil. He gives us that choice. You are wanting humans to be computers. To not be free. God did not want this.

Not that God could not have done this. But chose not to.

1730 CCC God created man a rational being conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. God Willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel, so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

Man is rational and therefore like God him he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

So there is the official answer.
 
STT said:
The point I am making is that free will is the source of imperfection therefore God is imperfect for creating a universe with agents whom have free will.
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Then you would have to say God is not perfect. Because the ccc states Man is rational and therefore Like God he is created with free will and is master over his own acts.

So do you believe that God has free will, and if you do, you would have to agree that free will is not a source of imperfection, or God is imperfect. You can’t have it both ways.
 
PseuTonym said:
Are you suggesting that generals don’t have free will?

Perhaps I have misunderstood your words, but my impression was that you were claiming that free will allows people to deliberately choose what they know to be morally wrong. Now, surely you are aware that mercenaries exist. Surely there are people who have experience, proficiency, knowledge, etc. associated with functioning in a military role. It would be very surprising if they all focus on the moral issues involved in the conflicts.

How about skill in making counterfeit money? Has there ever been somebody who made counterfeit money merely as a source of income, or have all counterfeiters throughout history always been pursuing what they thought to be moral ideals?
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No I don’t. I am simply saying that general might think good about their actions. If they think that their action is bad and still committing it then they use they free will and perform a bad action.
 
rinnie said:
Simple. It is the whole reason of our being. Answer me this, if God created us with a mind of our own, but refused to let us use that mind, what would be the reason for it.

God created us with a human mind to use, we either follow good or evil. He gives us that choice. You are wanting humans to be computers. To not be free. God did not want this.

Not that God could not have done this. But chose not to.

1730 CCC God created man a rational being conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. God Willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel, so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

Man is rational and therefore like God him he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

So there is the official answer.
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What I am trying to say is simple. Without free will we always do good. With free will we have ability to do bad. So free will is bad.
 
STT said:
No I don’t. I am simply saying that general might think good about their actions. If they think that their action is bad and still committing it then they use they free will and perform a bad action.
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Re-read this discussion, starting here:
STT claims that: “It seems rationally reasonable to choose good instead of bad”

The most straightforward conclusion, if we rely upon your claim, is that a general who chooses evil is making a choice that doesn’t seem to be rationally reasonable.

As for free will, you already indicated that it has a close connection with consciousness. Do you have reason to believe that all morally good actions are performed by people while they are unconscious?
 
STT said:
What I am trying to say is simple. Without free will we always do good. With free will we have ability to do bad. So free will is bad.
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Okay so you are saying God gave us free will, he gave us something bad?
 
STT said:
What I am trying to say is simple. Without free will we always do good. With free will we have ability to do bad. So free will is bad.
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God made us in his image, and God has free will and gave it to us. With that said if God has free will and free will is in the image of God it cannot be bad.

God gave us free will so we could love him. Without free will we would be robots, what good is it to force someone to love you? If you force someone to love you that is not true love. But that is what you are asking of God if you do not let him give us the ability to choose to Love him.

What would be the purpose of this world if we were not put here to love and serve God and have eternal life with him forever in heaven, or refuse to love and obey him and choose hell, and not to be with him? What I am asking why be here if not for free will? what would be the purpose of this world?
 
PseuTonym said:
Re-read this discussion, starting here:
STT claims that: “It seems rationally reasonable to choose good instead of bad”
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Yes.
PseuTonym said:
The most straightforward conclusion, if we rely upon your claim, is that a general who chooses evil is making a choice that doesn’t seem to be rationally reasonable.
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That is correct.
PseuTonym said:
As for free will, you already indicated that it has a close connection with consciousness. Do you have reason to believe that all morally good actions are performed by people while they are unconscious?
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All morally good and bad actions are made consciously.
 
rinnie said:
God made us in his image, and God has free will and gave it to us. With that said if God has free will and free will is in the image of God it cannot be bad.
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The fact that God gave us free will using his free will is bad.
rinnie said:
God gave us free will so we could love him. Without free will we would be robots, what good is it to force someone to love you? If you force someone to love you that is not true love. But that is what you are asking of God if you do not let him give us the ability to choose to Love him.

What would be the purpose of this world if we were not put here to love and serve God and have eternal life with him forever in heaven, or refuse to love and obey him and choose hell, and not to be with him? What I am asking why be here if not for free will? what would be the purpose of this world?
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Yes, we could do bad with free will and we would be robot without free will. This is a double sides sword which cuts from both side. The act of creation is bad anyway. So why bother?
 
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