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Pax
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I gathered that…I’m not sure what the point of contention is so I’ll take more of a wait and see attitude. I can be rather dense at times as you well know.
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mdcpensive1
Guest
Sandusky posted:
Also, you say those who are of sin can do nothing but sin. Are you saying that anyone in sin as you put it cannot love anyone else since love cannot exist with sin? Love is a virtue of God and that is totally opposite of evil.
mdcpensive1
I am trying to understand what you are saying here! Are you saying that everyone is either under sin (Satan) or under grace (Christ)? If you are, can we tell who is for who since we only have two choices? Are they easy to spot???
Also, you say those who are of sin can do nothing but sin. Are you saying that anyone in sin as you put it cannot love anyone else since love cannot exist with sin? Love is a virtue of God and that is totally opposite of evil.
mdcpensive1
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sandusky
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Yes.
What’s your take on that?
Explain how “love cannot exist with sin.”
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mdcpensive1
Guest
From Sandusky:
Quote:
It seems to me that what is going on with “free will” is a problem with definitions and I am trying to understand yours as opposed to others as being explained on this thread. That is why I asked the three questions. I hope you don’t think that I am trying to pin you into a corner with these questions and make you try to say something that you are not. I have an idea of what you are trying to say but I did not want to guess, hence, the questions. I want to respond to the question of “free will” but I hope the questions you ask of me now do not deviate from the issue needing to be discussed. But here goes!!
My take on question #3 is that (and I did not explain this well) there is sin that destroys the relationship we have with God and there is sin which inhibits our growth in this relationship. Some would call this relationship divine intimacy. The sin that inhibits but not destroys the relationship can be in all people, both good and bad. It can show up at various times. It does not mean that those who are “in sin” always sin and can do no good. And likewise those who are “with Christ” do not always do what is Christ-like and never sin (although it is theoretically possible). It means that our fallen nature does not guide us always to do what is Christ-like and we vacilate between doing what Christ would want us to do and what our self-serving desires want us to do.
However, sin that mortally effects our relationship or intimacy with the divine, cuts us off from the status we enjoy as being a child of God and one who is to inherit the Kingdom. Sin that is mortal is totally contrary to the Divine Presence. It removes that relatinship. That is why it cannot exist in the same place in our souls. Sin that is a result of our “poor” choices that does not destroy this divine relationship inhibits our growth in the Lord.
Therefore, someone in each situation looks physically the same. We cannot judge their condition of the relationship they have with God. We can however, know that some acts are worthy and some are not and give proper instruction.
I hope this helps and I await your response on my questions #2 and #3.
mdcpensive1
Quote:
Well, I got an answer to one of three. It seems my batting average is .333 which is good for spring training but not good for clarification to have a healthy discussion.
It seems to me that what is going on with “free will” is a problem with definitions and I am trying to understand yours as opposed to others as being explained on this thread. That is why I asked the three questions. I hope you don’t think that I am trying to pin you into a corner with these questions and make you try to say something that you are not. I have an idea of what you are trying to say but I did not want to guess, hence, the questions. I want to respond to the question of “free will” but I hope the questions you ask of me now do not deviate from the issue needing to be discussed. But here goes!!
My take on question #3 is that (and I did not explain this well) there is sin that destroys the relationship we have with God and there is sin which inhibits our growth in this relationship. Some would call this relationship divine intimacy. The sin that inhibits but not destroys the relationship can be in all people, both good and bad. It can show up at various times. It does not mean that those who are “in sin” always sin and can do no good. And likewise those who are “with Christ” do not always do what is Christ-like and never sin (although it is theoretically possible). It means that our fallen nature does not guide us always to do what is Christ-like and we vacilate between doing what Christ would want us to do and what our self-serving desires want us to do.
However, sin that mortally effects our relationship or intimacy with the divine, cuts us off from the status we enjoy as being a child of God and one who is to inherit the Kingdom. Sin that is mortal is totally contrary to the Divine Presence. It removes that relatinship. That is why it cannot exist in the same place in our souls. Sin that is a result of our “poor” choices that does not destroy this divine relationship inhibits our growth in the Lord.
Therefore, someone in each situation looks physically the same. We cannot judge their condition of the relationship they have with God. We can however, know that some acts are worthy and some are not and give proper instruction.
I hope this helps and I await your response on my questions #2 and #3.
mdcpensive1
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sandusky
Guest
The parable of the wheat and the tares say they both look the same (Mt 13:25ff).
I’m not following with respect to #3; how is it that you’ve concluded that “love cannot exist with sin?”
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mdcpensive1
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From Sandusky:
mdcpensive1
Now I am not following. I did not mention “love” in my post. But, if you want an answer, I would say that love is the opposite of sin in the sense that when we sin we do not exercise the virtue of love. I did mention that since God is the most supernatural good there is and therefore sin cannot be associated with Him. I don’t know if this is what you are asking???
mdcpensive1
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sandusky
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In your post #321, you said:
What leads you to that conclusion—love cannot exist with sin?
Back to your original question in that post then, yes, those who sin can love, even those who are unregenerate have love, and affection for their own, and for others.
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mdcpensive1
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Thanks for the reply. I forgot I said that in #321. I agree with your answer.
This now brings us back to the question of free will. You have given me some bible passages from 1Cor, Coll, Eph and 1Peter. I see where these passages talk about the graces God showers on us all, especially since when most of these passages talk about what happens to us after we are baptised.
These graces deliver us from that which had us in sin, or maybe I should use the term, “the world”. I see these passages talking about how we are now newly regenerated people which is what God called us to be from the beginning.
The question is though about how we get these graces. I believe you say, and tell me if I am wrong, that God just infuses them into us because He predestined us from the beginning. I believe that because of free will, we reach out and accept the graces that God has always been wanting us to have. I believe that because we are creatures who can love, this automatically says we have a choice to accept or reject. Otherwise we cannot say we have love because it is either oppression or forced behavior, which is not love.
If you don’t agree, I hope it is because of word definitions.
The peace of Christ be in both you and me and all others on the forum.
mdcpensive1
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sandusky
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If all of those things happen after baptism, then one is “dead” until baptism. How does one who is “dead” want to do, or in fact do anything? Can you give biblical support that the good stuff is post-baptismal?
Scripture presents “grace,” as a “gift undeserved,” or, as an “attitude, or disposition” of God toward his creation both in general, and in particular.
Can you give biblical support that grace is a substance, and that it is “infused?”
Also, what leads you to the conclusion that because God predestines to salvation those He intends to save, their behavior is “oppressed, or forced?”
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guanophore
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What happens prior to baptism is what we call prevenient or drawing grace. No one can come unless they are drawn.
This is very Catholic.
Scipture states that baptism washes a way sins. I don’t know that I would go so far as to say this means it is a “substance”. The water is substance. The grace is invisible. (unless of course, God sends a dove or something).
I am not sure that this is worded correctly. CAtholics believe that Mary was predestined, but that she had free will. Is there another way to ask this? Maybe it is because what Calvanists believe about salvation for everyone Catholics only recognize in a few.
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Pax
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The first question seems a little strange. I think we would both agree that grace is a gift. In that sense it is a thing of a spiritual nature. As such, one could say that it is a spiritual sustance.
As far as the second part is concerned, i.e. grace is “infused,” it would seem that scripture would indicate that it is. The word “infused” means according to Webster the following:
Main Entry: in·fuse
Pronunciation: \in-ˈfyüz\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): in·fused; in·fus·ing
Etymology: Middle English, to pour in, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French infuser, from Latin infusus, past participle of infundere to pour in, from in- + fundere to pour — more at found
Date: 1526
1 a: to cause to be permeated with something (as a principle or quality) that alters usually for the better b: introduce, insinuate <a new spirit was infused into American art — American Guide Series: New York>
2: inspire, animate
Scripture refers to our regeneration as follows:
ACTS 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
JOHN 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
ROMANS 6: 3-4
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
GALATIANS 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 2:8-10
For by** grace **you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
Gal 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
OT-- Baptism prefigured
Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
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mdcpensive1
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sandusky
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What does Peter mean, “baptism now saves you?”
I’ve stated several times that God does not force anyone to love Him, nor does He force anyone to believe in Him; those who do so willingly do so.
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sandusky
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You list 8 verses to prove that grace is a substance that is infused; of those 8 verses, only 1 contains the word “grace,” and it defines “grace and faith” as gifts of God.
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guanophore
Guest
There is a great thread on this, sandusky. Search tabcom and baptism. He created three of four threads last summer on baptism. In one he posts references to the use of the word baptism during the intertestamental period. Baptism is used in a recipe for pickles, wherein the cucumbers are permanently changed by the water bath, and can never return to their previous state. Fascinating!
Frankly, I don’t know how you get that it is a “substance” except out of your imagination. It is a process that changes those who are dipped. In the pickle recipe, the cucumber is first “bapto” (dipped) into the brine, then transferred into a crock and sealed in with the brine (baptized/immersed), changing the nature of the cucumber permanently. At baptism we do this with water, but it is the grace poured out that does the transformation, not the water.
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guanophore
Guest
Those who pass through baptism are washed, cleansed, transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. The bondage to sin is broken, and they are set free to choose righteousness.
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sandusky
Guest
Peter says this baptism is not the type that removes dirt from the flesh; certainly baptismal immersion in water would remove dirt from one’s flesh—but the baptism Peter is talking doesn’t do that.
This is confirmed if one stays within the context of the passage, and its comparison to
the eight in the ark; they were saved from the water those who were destroyed were
destroyed by the water.
Peter states that the saving comes through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and one’s belief in it, just as the eight were saved from the flood by belief in God, and getting into the ark as instructed.
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guanophore
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Baptism is not a form of bathing. It is washing with water, but does not have the purpose of physical cleansing, but spiritual cleansing.
Do you agree with tabcom? Do you think Baptism has nothing to do with water?!
Do you think that Peter was not talking about water in Acts 2, when he told them to be baptized?
When the prophet told Paul to be baptized, do you think he did not mean water?
Baptism is sacramental, which means it involved physical, visible elements as a conduit of invisible grace. It works the same as the mud that healed the eyes of the blind man. It is not effective without 1) presence of Jesus
2)presence of faith
3) cooperation with grace
4) following the format - if Jesus says go wash in the pool, you go.
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Pax
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Are you suggesting that the passages do not support regeneration, a new creation in Christ Jesus, and a transformation by way of grace that would support the infusion of grace? If not, then please explain to me what it means to be born again, to be regenerated, and what it means to be a new creation.
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