What is worse...religious righteous or sinners?

[suupah]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

 

[LilyM]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

You can’t be both pharisaic and righteous - it’s a contradiction in terms. Pharisaism means SEEMING righteousness. As you say, the appearances and externals of piety with nothing inside. A whitewashed sepulchre with no life or real holiness within, just dead men’s bones.

Pharisees *are *sinners like any other sinners, who don’t look like sinners on the outside, as lots of other sinners don’t either. So the distinction is somewhat meaningless.

And I’d also dispute your equation of ‘pharisaic’ with ‘religious’. Someone who is ‘religious’ is genuinely in touch with God, ‘religion’ is from the Latin word for ‘binding’ - so people who are religious are genuinely bound to God. Someone who is pharisaic is not.

Now there are plenty, like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and many of our sainted Popes and Doctors, who combined great knowledge of and interest in the faith, in its mechanics and minutiae, with genuine love of God, actual righteousness. And truly found that for them, “God is in the details” as Mies van der Rohe said.

They were both ‘religious’ and ‘righteous’ without being in the slightest ‘pharisaical’. Goes again to show the meaninglessness of your question.

 

[AJ85]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

Your second paragraph is very interesting. I love to study theology and philosophy, and I sometimes spend more time studying than I do in prayer. That hasn’t been the answer for me.
As for your question, neither is good, but I would say being “righteous” worse. Read the story in Luke 12 about the two servants. Jesus talks about how more is expected of those who know what is expected from them vs the ones who do not.
I hope that answered your question.

 

[AJ85]

You can’t be both pharisaic and righteous - it’s a contradiction in terms. Pharisaism means SEEMING righteousness. As you say, the appearances and externals of piety with nothing inside. A whitewashed sepulchre with no life or real holiness within, just dead men’s bones.

Pharisees *are *sinners like any other sinners, who don’t look like sinners on the outside, as lots of other sinners don’t either. So the distinction is somewhat meaningless.

And I’d also dispute your equation of ‘pharisaic’ with ‘religious’. Someone who is ‘religious’ is genuinely in touch with God, ‘religion’ is from the Latin word for ‘binding’ - so people who are religious are genuinely bound to God. Someone who is pharisaic is not.

Now there are plenty, like Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and many of our sainted Popes and Doctors, who combined great knowledge of and interest in the faith, in its mechanics and minutiae, with genuine love of God, actual righteousness. And truly found that for them, “God is in the details” as Mies van der Rohe said.

They were both ‘religious’ and ‘righteous’ without being in the slightest ‘pharisaical’. Goes again to show the meaninglessness of your question.

I think he was talking about people who are “holier than thou” and think they are so great.

 

[LilyM]

I think he was talking about people who are “holier than thou” and think they are so great.

I know what he was talking about, he was using entirely the wrong terms though.

Again, what you and he are talking about is SEEMING righteousness and not actual righteousness. Such ‘holier than thou’ people are sinners like any others - their sin being pride. So to ask ‘are they worse than sinners’ is a contradiction in terms - they ARE sinners, not ‘worse than’.

 

[StCsDavid]

The problem with the question is that we’re all sinners, righteously religious or not. So to say one is better off than the other is akin to saying that those who steal for a living are better off than those who commit adultery. Besides the predominant theme in Christ teachings is not that He condemns, but that we condemn ourselves. See John 3:18; Luke 6:37; Mark 16:16; Matthew 12:37.

 

[Starwynd]

Religious righteousness is a term that holds many meanings. I can see in one sense where it could be considered a sin of pride, as in when some Christians consider themselves superior than other people just because they are serving a higher power and that non-believers are beneath them.

But it can mean something positive too, that a person is in touch with God, and in that sense it can be truly right.

You’d have to be a bit more clear on eactly what you mean by religious righteousness.

 

[suupah]

I know what he was talking about, he was using entirely the wrong terms though.

Again, what you and he are talking about is SEEMING righteousness and not actual righteousness. Such ‘holier than thou’ people are sinners like any others - their sin being pride. So to ask ‘are they worse than sinners’ is a contradiction in terms - they ARE sinners, not ‘worse than’.

You know what i was trying to say.

 

[suupah]

Religious righteousness is a term that holds many meanings. I can see in one sense where it could be considered a sin of pride, as in when some Christians consider themselves superior than other people just because they are serving a higher power and that non-believers are beneath them.

Yes that is one aspect of what i was saying. There are many Christians, Catholic or otherwise, that have a sense of superiority because their doctrines are better or more correct. Meanwhile they condemn others that don’t hold to or understand those doctrines.

I believe This is the “letter of the law” as opposed to “the spirit of the law”. this I believe Jesus condemns.

 

[GraceDK]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

The Lord says: “No one is good but God” … he did not say "…save one or two… oh and you overthere "… He said NONE…

The secret with true faith is that the closer you get to Christ, the further away you will stand. Like the publican. Its written: he stood far away and beat his chest. In that sentence there is a deep truth: The closer you get to Christ and the more you step out into ministry to serve Him through love the more you will see your self as the ashes you are. Jesus says: “Apart from ME you can do NOTHING”.

so to your question. show me one who is righteous… whether religious or secular and I will go to him and listen to his words. Chances are that the best are those who you find in the wilderness tending to the poor and needy… those who give themselves.

Christ says: Die to your self. If you dont die to your self but clutch on to your self and who you are and how you are progressing… then you did not understand.

The Prophet Isaiah says: there is no one righteous… Not ONE.
And saint Paul: "Christ has become our righteousness". There is no other righteousness than Him.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes that is one aspect of what i was saying. There are many Christians, Catholic or otherwise, that have a sense of superiority because their doctrines are better or more correct. Meanwhile they condemn others that don’t hold to or understand those doctrines.

I believe This is the “letter of the law” as opposed to “the spirit of the law”. this I believe Jesus condemns.

Indeed, but you are much better than them, aren’t you?

 

[surfinpure]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

Pride is a sin. If by “religious righteous” you mean someone who is prideful about their faith, then you are really talking about two sinners, aren’t you?

And remember, Christ also said, “Neither fornicators, idolators, etc., etc., will enter the kingdom of heaven.” He wasn’t exactly what you’d call “weak” on sin.

 

[suupah]

Indeed, but you are much better than them, aren’t you?

Nice try.

But I did see myself going down this road about six months ago when I was really getting into Catholic Orthodoxy. The more I studied history, tradition and theology the more defects
I saw in others faith practices. I realized that I was becoming the pharisees though. I think that it is really a trap that to some degree I (we) will always fall into to differing degrees.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Is there really a difference?

Honestly, who did Jesus ever actually condemn? Indeed, He condemned the practices and customs of the Pharisees. He condemned them because they were sins. He condemns sins all through the Gospels. He condemns hypocrisy, He condemns greed, He condemns pride, He condemns lust, etc…and then He turns to those of us who would choose between ‘the sinner and the religious righteous,’ looks into our eyes and says “let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Who are we to say who is better off? I think the danger of delving deep into Theology–incidentally, I am deep in it myself so I think I have some grounds to speak–is that we lose sight of the basics. None of us is better off–we are saved because He died for us. It is pride to think we decide who is condemned and who is saved. Condemn, rather, the sin that you see before you. Leave the sinners to the Lord.

 

[rlg94086]

Nice try.

No trying involved at all - just simple observation of the irony of your thread. You obviously consider someone who is “religious righteous” as being less righteous than yourself, or you wouldn’t have started a thread about whether they or the sinner are better off. Whenever you get into comparisons such as that, you are automatically saying that someone is a greater sinner by their nature.

Now, are you “religious righteous” and claiming you are better off or are you a “sinner” and claiming you are better off?

I would posit that we are all sinners…including the “religious righteous”…and we all rely on the grace of God.

 

[rlg94086]

Is there really a difference?

Honestly, who did Jesus ever actually condemn? Indeed, He condemned the practices and customs of the Pharisees. He condemned them because they were sins. He condemns sins all through the Gospels. He condemns hypocrisy, He condemns greed, He condemns pride, He condemns lust, etc…and then He turns to those of us who would choose between ‘the sinner and the religious righteous,’ looks into our eyes and says “let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Who are we to say who is better off? I think the danger of delving deep into Theology–incidentally, I am deep in it myself so I think I have some grounds to speak–is that we lose sight of the basics. None of us is better off–we are saved because He died for us. It is pride to think we decide who is condemned and who is saved. Condemn, rather, the sin that you see before you. Leave the sinners to the Lord.

Precisely! I’m pretty certain that this is what is meant by…
Matthew 7:

1 1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 **Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? **4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.

 

[Chancellare]

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic(Sic) in your faith.

This premise is not a 100% cause and effect relationship. Most people I know who were properly educated in theology and history did not come as ‘phariseetic’ to me as compared to those who were uneducated.

Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

Hardly attributes of an educated mind.

 

[GraceDK]

I got to thinking today while discussing theology (soteriology) with a friend of mine who holds different views than I on the subject. We got to talking about who Jesus condemned. And the only people i could think of off the top of my head were the religious righteous.

The problem with delving deeply into theology, doctrine and history is you risk becoming phariseetic in your faith. Form becomes more important that substance. mechanics becoming more important than intent. Intellectualizing the faith is a dangerous road to travel.

so i have to ask the question…who is better off the religious righteous or the sinner.

As for me I found this post to be expressing my own thoughts and I like the way you put it. Thank you I wanna say… I feel understood and helped by your honesty.
I also sometimes fear that especially my Catholic brethren make a god out of theology, form and liturgy, instead of focusing on the Person of God who breaks all limits … who does not fit into proper patterns, who is pretty (name removed by moderator)redictable. … Some forget the personal relationship they have with Him and without which the inner transformation cannot occur.

When people become anxious to live a life within frames and forms they sometimes begin to lean on those frames and forms instead of on God alone… so too they can begin to look down on those who prefer other ways of walking with Christ. Its a risk for us all… and I know I had my share of this sickness especially when I was a new convert. My intentions were good… but I tried to earn God’s favour by fitting my daily life into a pattern or system which however strict it was never let me feel at ease. I used it as my crutch… and in the end as I stood in the empty air unable to carry it through I asked my self: Do I trust in my heavenly Father or do I trust in the system that I and other people have made before me…?

Just some thoughts…

 

[suupah]

No trying involved at all - just simple observation of the irony of your thread. You obviously consider someone who is “religious righteous” as being less righteous than yourself, or you wouldn’t have started a thread about whether they or the sinner are better off. Whenever you get into comparisons such as that, you are automatically saying that someone is a greater sinner by their nature.

Now, are you “religious righteous” and claiming you are better off or are you a “sinner” and claiming you are better off?

I would posit that we are all sinners…including the “religious righteous”…and we all rely on the grace of God.

wow your so clever. You know what i am trying to say and you are concentrating on a flaw in the way I said it. If you dont’ mind, give a sincere thought on the subject or please move along because what you are doing is not adding anything to the discussion.

 

[suupah]

As for me I found this post to be expressing my own thoughts and I like the way you put it. Thank you I wanna say… I feel understood and helped by your honesty.
I also sometimes fear that especially my Catholic brethren make a god out of theology, form and liturgy, instead of focusing on the Person of God who breaks all limits … who does not fit into proper patterns, who is pretty (name removed by moderator)redictable. … Some forget the personal relationship they have with Him and without which the inner transformation cannot occur.

When people become anxious to live a life within frames and forms they sometimes begin to lean on those frames and forms instead of on God alone… so too they can begin to look down on those who prefer other ways of walking with Christ. Its a risk for us all… and I know I had my share of this sickness especially when I was a new convert. My intentions were good… but I tried to earn God’s favour by fitting my daily life into a pattern or system which however strict it was never let me feel at ease. I used it as my crutch… and in the end as I stood in the empty air unable to carry it through I asked my self: Do I trust in my heavenly Father or do I trust in the system that I and other people have made before me…?

Just some thoughts…

exactly what i was thinking. I also feel that I started to turn to my rituals, routines and disciplines instead of just turning completely toward my God.